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	<title>Comments on: Festooning The Tree Of Life</title>
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/</link>
	<description>A blog about life, past and future. Written by DISCOVER contributing editor and columnist Carl Zimmer.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 05:40:27 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1</generator>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-8830</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 23:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-8830</guid>
		<description>Life intervened, but finally returning to old threads FWIW:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
is there still a prediction that can be made, or does it become an unfalsifiable mess?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think that is debated, but molecular phylogenies are perhaps testable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Life intervened, but finally returning to old threads FWIW:</p>
<blockquote><p>
is there still a prediction that can be made, or does it become an unfalsifiable mess?
</p></blockquote>
<p>I think that is debated, but molecular phylogenies are perhaps testable.</p>
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		<title>By: Lars</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-8401</link>
		<dc:creator>Lars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-8401</guid>
		<description>On a related note...

One of the pieces of evidence for evolution,  claimed as a successful prediction of the "new synthesis", has been the tree of life, in the sense that phylogenies derived from both genetic and morphological data are supposed to match each other.

In the case of a mangrove/DAG/Gordian knot of horizontal gene transfer, is there still a prediction that can be made, or does it become an unfalsifiable mess?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On a related note&#8230;</p>
<p>One of the pieces of evidence for evolution,  claimed as a successful prediction of the &#8220;new synthesis&#8221;, has been the tree of life, in the sense that phylogenies derived from both genetic and morphological data are supposed to match each other.</p>
<p>In the case of a mangrove/DAG/Gordian knot of horizontal gene transfer, is there still a prediction that can be made, or does it become an unfalsifiable mess?</p>
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		<title>By: Lars</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-8400</link>
		<dc:creator>Lars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-8400</guid>
		<description>"Assuming genes aren’t being traded backwards in time, ... It’s a directed acyclic graph, or DAG. "

Note that this change of metaphor also requires changing the mapping from metaphor to reality. In Darwin's tree, each node (or equivalently, each node's parent branch) represents a species or clade. In the DAG, if each node represented a species, the graph would be cyclic, since species A can transfer genes to species B and vice versa. In order to have a DAG as you suggest, each node must represent one end of a gene-transfer event, i.e. we must have a new node (at least on the recipient side?) wherever a gene transfer occurs. It doesn't appear that Dagan et al have constructed their drawing that way... the y axis only represents descent, and time by implication.

An interesting prediction of this model would be that a DAG *exists*, that can account for all the evident gene transfers, i.e. without going backward in time. Whether that's a trivial condition to meet or not, I don't know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Assuming genes aren’t being traded backwards in time, &#8230; It’s a directed acyclic graph, or DAG. &#8221;</p>
<p>Note that this change of metaphor also requires changing the mapping from metaphor to reality. In Darwin&#8217;s tree, each node (or equivalently, each node&#8217;s parent branch) represents a species or clade. In the DAG, if each node represented a species, the graph would be cyclic, since species A can transfer genes to species B and vice versa. In order to have a DAG as you suggest, each node must represent one end of a gene-transfer event, i.e. we must have a new node (at least on the recipient side?) wherever a gene transfer occurs. It doesn&#8217;t appear that Dagan et al have constructed their drawing that way&#8230; the y axis only represents descent, and time by implication.</p>
<p>An interesting prediction of this model would be that a DAG *exists*, that can account for all the evident gene transfers, i.e. without going backward in time. Whether that&#8217;s a trivial condition to meet or not, I don&#8217;t know.</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-7089</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-7089</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
this tree bush mangrove thicket Gordian knot
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yeess... but if the most recognizable feature (that of tending to a single lateral transfer) is of the process, not of its outcome, it would IMHO be best if the new metaphor describes that instead.

Janne is then closer with his DAG description, but it is general as a metaphor. 

As a process this reminds me of &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canopy_formation" rel="nofollow"&gt;parachute canopy formation (formation involving a state change of the parachute, somewhat analogous to the lateral transfer)&lt;/a&gt;. (And as a picture it reminds me of tree canopies mixing, keeping some connection to the earlier logic, as well as the earlier metaphor specifically.)  

So the "canopy [formation] of life", perhaps?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
this tree bush mangrove thicket Gordian knot
</p></blockquote>
<p>Yeess&#8230; but if the most recognizable feature (that of tending to a single lateral transfer) is of the process, not of its outcome, it would IMHO be best if the new metaphor describes that instead.</p>
<p>Janne is then closer with his DAG description, but it is general as a metaphor. </p>
<p>As a process this reminds me of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canopy_formation" rel="nofollow">parachute canopy formation (formation involving a state change of the parachute, somewhat analogous to the lateral transfer)</a>. (And as a picture it reminds me of tree canopies mixing, keeping some connection to the earlier logic, as well as the earlier metaphor specifically.)  </p>
<p>So the &#8220;canopy [formation] of life&#8221;, perhaps?</p>
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		<title>By: John S. Wilkins</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-7069</link>
		<dc:creator>John S. Wilkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 03:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-7069</guid>
		<description>amphiox - there is a theory called the Core Genome Hypothesis, also known as the "housekeeping genes" hypothesis, that a set of microbial genes are crucial to the very functioning of the microbe and hence are hard to swap and hard to lose. Although there are exceptions, this seems robust enough to explain why some microbial species remain coherent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>amphiox - there is a theory called the Core Genome Hypothesis, also known as the &#8220;housekeeping genes&#8221; hypothesis, that a set of microbial genes are crucial to the very functioning of the microbe and hence are hard to swap and hard to lose. Although there are exceptions, this seems robust enough to explain why some microbial species remain coherent.</p>
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		<title>By: News &#187; Lateral gene transfer and the history of life</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-7065</link>
		<dc:creator>News &#187; Lateral gene transfer and the history of life</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 01:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-7065</guid>
		<description>[...] Festooning The Tree Of Life. Carl Zimmer describes new research on lateral gene transfer which makes the Tree of Life look more like a Gordian Knot. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Festooning The Tree Of Life. Carl Zimmer describes new research on lateral gene transfer which makes the Tree of Life look more like a Gordian Knot. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Lateral gene transfer and the history of life</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-7046</link>
		<dc:creator>Lateral gene transfer and the history of life</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:42:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-7046</guid>
		<description>[...] gene transfer and the history of life     Festooning The Tree Of Life. Carl Zimmer describes new research on lateral gene transfer which makes the Tree of Life look more [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] gene transfer and the history of life     Festooning The Tree Of Life. Carl Zimmer describes new research on lateral gene transfer which makes the Tree of Life look more [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Tsjok45</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-7026</link>
		<dc:creator>Tsjok45</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-7026</guid>
		<description>Ah yes ;
the web of life  on this  planet  :
It's still a " primal soup "of all kinds of genes  ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah yes ;<br />
the web of life  on this  planet  :<br />
It&#8217;s still a &#8221; primal soup &#8220;of all kinds of genes  ?</p>
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		<title>By: amphiox</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-6971</link>
		<dc:creator>amphiox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 02:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-6971</guid>
		<description>What could possibly trap a gene in vertical descent after it has made one jump? Is it something to do with the mechanisms by which genes make the jump? Or is it a statistical thing, that is, the probability of a gene jumping and surviving (both being retained by the recipient, and the recipient lineage surviving to the present day) low enough that on average each gene observed to jump has only jumped once.

Are there any genes at all that have been confirmed to have jumped more than once?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What could possibly trap a gene in vertical descent after it has made one jump? Is it something to do with the mechanisms by which genes make the jump? Or is it a statistical thing, that is, the probability of a gene jumping and surviving (both being retained by the recipient, and the recipient lineage surviving to the present day) low enough that on average each gene observed to jump has only jumped once.</p>
<p>Are there any genes at all that have been confirmed to have jumped more than once?</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Johnson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-6958</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:35:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-6958</guid>
		<description>The concept of lateral gene transfer reminds me of David Quammen's recent article in Harper's about contagious cancer (http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/04/0081988). For instance, about Canine Transmissible Venereal Tumor in domestic dogs, Quammen writes:

"Tumor cells in Dog B, Dog C, Dog D, and Dog Z are more closely related to each other than those cells are to the dogs they respectively inhabit."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The concept of lateral gene transfer reminds me of David Quammen&#8217;s recent article in Harper&#8217;s about contagious cancer (http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/04/0081988). For instance, about Canine Transmissible Venereal Tumor in domestic dogs, Quammen writes:</p>
<p>&#8220;Tumor cells in Dog B, Dog C, Dog D, and Dog Z are more closely related to each other than those cells are to the dogs they respectively inhabit.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Sven DiMilo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-6955</link>
		<dc:creator>Sven DiMilo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:11:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-6955</guid>
		<description>Please help me out with this one:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Next, the scientists identified genes that are found in a tuft of branches, as well as to a single living species. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
From context, I'm guessing it should read "...as well as in a single living species on a distant branch," or something like that. If not, please explain.
thx
&lt;em&gt;
[Carl: You inferred rightly. I've tweaked the post. I hope that's clearer now.]&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please help me out with this one:</p>
<blockquote><p>Next, the scientists identified genes that are found in a tuft of branches, as well as to a single living species. </p></blockquote>
<p>From context, I&#8217;m guessing it should read &#8220;&#8230;as well as in a single living species on a distant branch,&#8221; or something like that. If not, please explain.<br />
thx<br />
<em><br />
[Carl: You inferred rightly. I&#8217;ve tweaked the post. I hope that&#8217;s clearer now.]</em></p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-6953</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:54:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/17/festooning-the-tree-of-life/#comment-6953</guid>
		<description>You heard it here first.  Microbial evolution is a "cloud" of life rather than a "tree" of life.  Heh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You heard it here first.  Microbial evolution is a &#8220;cloud&#8221; of life rather than a &#8220;tree&#8221; of life.  Heh.</p>
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