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	<title>Comments on: Darwin, Linnaeus, and One Sleepy Guy</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/</link>
	<description>A blog about life, past and future. Written by DISCOVER contributing editor and columnist Carl Zimmer.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 10:55:13 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Darwinius: Named at Last! &#124; The Loom &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-18440</link>
		<dc:creator>Darwinius: Named at Last! &#124; The Loom &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 00:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/#comment-18440</guid>
		<description>[...] of rules, no matter how intricate, was one of the great advances in the history of biology. (See my lecture [audio] for a sense of the chaos that came [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of rules, no matter how intricate, was one of the great advances in the history of biology. (See my lecture [audio] for a sense of the chaos that came [...]</p>
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		<title>By: For Your Listening Pleasure: Darwin and Linneaus and the Web of Life &#124; The Loom &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-12982</link>
		<dc:creator>For Your Listening Pleasure: Darwin and Linneaus and the Web of Life &#124; The Loom &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/#comment-12982</guid>
		<description>[...] I spoke at the Chautauqua Institution as part of their celebration of Darwin and Linnaeus. I posted the written version of my talk back then, but I&#8217;ve just received the audio recording and thought some folks might [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I spoke at the Chautauqua Institution as part of their celebration of Darwin and Linnaeus. I posted the written version of my talk back then, but I&#8217;ve just received the audio recording and thought some folks might [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Noumenon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-9223</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumenon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 08:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/#comment-9223</guid>
		<description>I also want to mention that &lt;I&gt;e. coli&lt;/i&gt; can metabolize citrate, just not in the conditions these flasks were in.  The original paper makes it very clear how much of the required machinery was already in place before the last few mutations that allowed the citrate to pass through the membrane (emphasis added):
&lt;blockquote&gt;The inability to use citrate as an
energy source under oxic conditions has long been a defining
characteristic of E. coli as a species (35, 36). Nevertheless, E. coli
is not wholly indifferent to citrate. It uses a ferric dicitrate
transport system for iron acquisition, although citrate does not
enter the cell in this process (37, 38). &lt;i&gt;It also has a complete tricarboxylic acid cycle, and can thus metabolize citrate internally during aerobic growth on other substrates (39). E. coli is able to ferment citrate under anoxic conditions if a cosubstrate is available for reducing power (40). The only known barrier to aerobic growth on citrate is its inability to transport citrate under
oxic conditions (41–43).&lt;/i&gt; Indeed, atypical E. coli that grow
aerobically on citrate (Cit) have been isolated from agricultural
and clinical settings, and were found to harbor plasmids, presumably
acquired from other species, that encode citrate transporters
(44, 45).
Other findings suggest that E. coli has the potential to evolve
a Cit phenotype. Hall (41) reported the only documented case
of a spontaneous Cit mutant in E. coli... Pos et al. (43) identified an operon in
E. coli K-12 that apparently allows anaerobic citrate fermentation,
and which includes a gene, citT, encoding a citrate–
succinate antiporter. High-level constitutive expression of this
gene on a multicopy plasmid allows aerobic growth on citrate,
but the native operon has a single copy that is presumably
induced only under anoxic conditions.

Despite this potential, none of the 12 LTEE populations
evolved the capacity to use the citrate that was present in their
environment for over 30,000 generations. &lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also want to mention that <i>e. coli</i> can metabolize citrate, just not in the conditions these flasks were in.  The original paper makes it very clear how much of the required machinery was already in place before the last few mutations that allowed the citrate to pass through the membrane (emphasis added):</p>
<blockquote><p>The inability to use citrate as an<br />
energy source under oxic conditions has long been a defining<br />
characteristic of E. coli as a species (35, 36). Nevertheless, E. coli<br />
is not wholly indifferent to citrate. It uses a ferric dicitrate<br />
transport system for iron acquisition, although citrate does not<br />
enter the cell in this process (37, 38). <i>It also has a complete tricarboxylic acid cycle, and can thus metabolize citrate internally during aerobic growth on other substrates (39). E. coli is able to ferment citrate under anoxic conditions if a cosubstrate is available for reducing power (40). The only known barrier to aerobic growth on citrate is its inability to transport citrate under<br />
oxic conditions (41–43).</i> Indeed, atypical E. coli that grow<br />
aerobically on citrate (Cit) have been isolated from agricultural<br />
and clinical settings, and were found to harbor plasmids, presumably<br />
acquired from other species, that encode citrate transporters<br />
(44, 45).<br />
Other findings suggest that E. coli has the potential to evolve<br />
a Cit phenotype. Hall (41) reported the only documented case<br />
of a spontaneous Cit mutant in E. coli&#8230; Pos et al. (43) identified an operon in<br />
E. coli K-12 that apparently allows anaerobic citrate fermentation,<br />
and which includes a gene, citT, encoding a citrate–<br />
succinate antiporter. High-level constitutive expression of this<br />
gene on a multicopy plasmid allows aerobic growth on citrate,<br />
but the native operon has a single copy that is presumably<br />
induced only under anoxic conditions.</p>
<p>Despite this potential, none of the 12 LTEE populations<br />
evolved the capacity to use the citrate that was present in their<br />
environment for over 30,000 generations. </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Noumenon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-9221</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumenon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/#comment-9221</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And now a not very germane question: if E. coli can’t metabolize citrate, why is it in the medium in the first place? Is it used for a buffer or something?&lt;/i&gt;

In the comment thread on the &lt;a href=&quot;http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/06/02/a_new_step_in_evolution.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;original post&lt;/a&gt; one of the grad students, Zachary Blount, showed up and gave a great answer to this question:&lt;blockquote&gt;...citrate is commonly included in defined E. coli growth media (defined media are growth media for which we known exactly what is there and in what amount, as opposed to rich media such as Luria broth, trypticase soy broth, or brain heart infusion, which include enzymatic digests of yeasts and various proteins and, yes in the case of the third one, brains and hearts of cows which can vary in their exact constituents) just to make sure that the bacteria don&#039;t starve for iron.

Also, when the media from which DM25 was developed were first formulated in the early to mid-20th century, it was common to keep them in 50x stocks that were then later diluted with water before use. At this concentration, the sodium citrate concentration was increased beyond what the organism strictly needed to prevent another component of the medium, magnesium sulfate, from precipitating out. As E. coli were not bothered by this, no other thought was given to the issue. I find this rather interesting, as it means that the citrate concentration in DM25 is also something of a matter of historical contingency - the niche for the Cit+ variant E. coli I study would not be nearly as large had not those bacteriologists of long ago not been so concerned about saving space!

I would need to check with Dr. Lenski as to precisely why he chose DM25, but I am pretty sure it was a medium he had worked with before. Certainly he saw the glucose level as more important, and it is very easy and non-troublesome to alter the amount of glucose in DM25.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And now a not very germane question: if E. coli can’t metabolize citrate, why is it in the medium in the first place? Is it used for a buffer or something?</i></p>
<p>In the comment thread on the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/06/02/a_new_step_in_evolution.php" rel="nofollow">original post</a> one of the grad students, Zachary Blount, showed up and gave a great answer to this question:<br />
<blockquote>&#8230;citrate is commonly included in defined E. coli growth media (defined media are growth media for which we known exactly what is there and in what amount, as opposed to rich media such as Luria broth, trypticase soy broth, or brain heart infusion, which include enzymatic digests of yeasts and various proteins and, yes in the case of the third one, brains and hearts of cows which can vary in their exact constituents) just to make sure that the bacteria don&#8217;t starve for iron.</p>
<p>Also, when the media from which DM25 was developed were first formulated in the early to mid-20th century, it was common to keep them in 50x stocks that were then later diluted with water before use. At this concentration, the sodium citrate concentration was increased beyond what the organism strictly needed to prevent another component of the medium, magnesium sulfate, from precipitating out. As E. coli were not bothered by this, no other thought was given to the issue. I find this rather interesting, as it means that the citrate concentration in DM25 is also something of a matter of historical contingency &#8211; the niche for the Cit+ variant E. coli I study would not be nearly as large had not those bacteriologists of long ago not been so concerned about saving space!</p>
<p>I would need to check with Dr. Lenski as to precisely why he chose DM25, but I am pretty sure it was a medium he had worked with before. Certainly he saw the glucose level as more important, and it is very easy and non-troublesome to alter the amount of glucose in DM25.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Larry Moran</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-9120</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Moran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 12:24:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/#comment-9120</guid>
		<description>It was so much fun meeting you and talking science. I discovered that, unlike me, you actually aren&#039;t as nice in person as you are on your blog! :-)

You actually have some opinions about various people&#8212;who shall not be named here&#8212;in spite of the fact that the internal squabbles among bloggers never make it on to &lt;i&gt;The Loom&lt;/i&gt;. That was refreshing. I was beginning to think you were perfect.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was so much fun meeting you and talking science. I discovered that, unlike me, you actually aren&#8217;t as nice in person as you are on your blog! <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>You actually have some opinions about various people&mdash;who shall not be named here&mdash;in spite of the fact that the internal squabbles among bloggers never make it on to <i>The Loom</i>. That was refreshing. I was beginning to think you were perfect.  <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: David B. Benson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-9096</link>
		<dc:creator>David B. Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 01:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/#comment-9096</guid>
		<description>Carl Zimmer, what a wonderously good essay!

Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl Zimmer, what a wonderously good essay!</p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Porlock Hussein Junior</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-9072</link>
		<dc:creator>Porlock Hussein Junior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 04:01:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/#comment-9072</guid>
		<description>That is a wonderful experiment. It just about brings tears to my eyes that somebody actually &lt;i&gt;did&lt;/i&gt; this over 20 years. (Is doing it, in fact.) An excellent description here, too. I had vaguely heard of the experiment, but the emphasis in what I heard was on an amazing attack on the work from the egregious Andy Schlafly, and the two responses to that: the first proper, polite one, and the hatchet job, with an exceedinglhy sharp and shiny hatchet, that was the exerimenter&#039;s response to Schlafly&#039;s persistence. But now I see the elegance of the work.

And now a not very germane question: if E. coli can&#039;t metabolize citrate, why is it in the medium in the first place? Is it used for a buffer or something?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is a wonderful experiment. It just about brings tears to my eyes that somebody actually <i>did</i> this over 20 years. (Is doing it, in fact.) An excellent description here, too. I had vaguely heard of the experiment, but the emphasis in what I heard was on an amazing attack on the work from the egregious Andy Schlafly, and the two responses to that: the first proper, polite one, and the hatchet job, with an exceedinglhy sharp and shiny hatchet, that was the exerimenter&#8217;s response to Schlafly&#8217;s persistence. But now I see the elegance of the work.</p>
<p>And now a not very germane question: if E. coli can&#8217;t metabolize citrate, why is it in the medium in the first place? Is it used for a buffer or something?</p>
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		<title>By: Luna_the_cat</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-9062</link>
		<dc:creator>Luna_the_cat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 19:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/#comment-9062</guid>
		<description>Great piece -- thank you.

But just to add to your store of Irrelevant Facts For The Day, I could add to &quot;Another speaker, Beth Shapiro, ancient DNA expert from Penn State, informed me that people in Siberia ride reindeer like horses, although she was thrown off one. &quot;  Did you know that several abortive attempts have also been made to domesticate moose for riding in Scandinavia and Russia, in the high Middle Ages, in the 18th C., and again last century as late as the 60s?  They are certainly strong enough, they are good in heavily forested areas, and they can handle swamps that horses won&#039;t go near -- but apparently they have a bad tendency to get too cranky to handle in the run-up to mating season, something I can well believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great piece &#8212; thank you.</p>
<p>But just to add to your store of Irrelevant Facts For The Day, I could add to &#8220;Another speaker, Beth Shapiro, ancient DNA expert from Penn State, informed me that people in Siberia ride reindeer like horses, although she was thrown off one. &#8221;  Did you know that several abortive attempts have also been made to domesticate moose for riding in Scandinavia and Russia, in the high Middle Ages, in the 18th C., and again last century as late as the 60s?  They are certainly strong enough, they are good in heavily forested areas, and they can handle swamps that horses won&#8217;t go near &#8212; but apparently they have a bad tendency to get too cranky to handle in the run-up to mating season, something I can well believe.</p>
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		<title>By: Trinifar</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-9006</link>
		<dc:creator>Trinifar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/#comment-9006</guid>
		<description>Great talk.

Very glad to hear Chautauqua Institute is still going strong after all these years.  I grew up nearby but haven&#039;t been back in a long time.  It&#039;s a fabulous cultural resource for southwestern NY &amp; northwestern PA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great talk.</p>
<p>Very glad to hear Chautauqua Institute is still going strong after all these years.  I grew up nearby but haven&#8217;t been back in a long time.  It&#8217;s a fabulous cultural resource for southwestern NY &#038; northwestern PA.</p>
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		<title>By: E. coli&#8230;It&#8217;s What&#8217;s for Dinner &#171; n e u r o N A R R A T I V E</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-8992</link>
		<dc:creator>E. coli&#8230;It&#8217;s What&#8217;s for Dinner &#171; n e u r o N A R R A T I V E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/#comment-8992</guid>
		<description>[...] Carl Zimmer over at The Loom, that&#8217;s who. He&#8217;s been generous enough to post his remarks from a speech he gave at the Chautauqua Institution, and it&#8217;s compelling stuff (assuming [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Carl Zimmer over at The Loom, that&#8217;s who. He&#8217;s been generous enough to post his remarks from a speech he gave at the Chautauqua Institution, and it&#8217;s compelling stuff (assuming [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brett</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-8987</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 04:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/#comment-8987</guid>
		<description>@Measure:

As I told Cava I&#039;m not pushing anything, least of all Christianity or any other religion.  

In your question, you make the assumption that science has made religion &quot;irrelevant.&quot;  In the book, Dowd assumes that religion is still relevant and it is only by understanding science that this relevance can be fully appreciated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Measure:</p>
<p>As I told Cava I&#8217;m not pushing anything, least of all Christianity or any other religion.  </p>
<p>In your question, you make the assumption that science has made religion &#8220;irrelevant.&#8221;  In the book, Dowd assumes that religion is still relevant and it is only by understanding science that this relevance can be fully appreciated.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Zimmer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/comment-page-1/#comment-8986</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Zimmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 03:47:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/08/20/darwin-linnaeus-and-one-sleepy-guy/#comment-8986</guid>
		<description>Brett--hadn&#039;t read it, probably won&#039;t have time to. Got a mighty tall stack of books glaring at me right now. so thanks for the precis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brett&#8211;hadn&#8217;t read it, probably won&#8217;t have time to. Got a mighty tall stack of books glaring at me right now. so thanks for the precis.</p>
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