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	<title>Comments on: Genes and Intelligence: My Anti-Story</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/</link>
	<description>A blog about life, past and future. Written by DISCOVER contributing editor and columnist Carl Zimmer.</description>
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		<title>By: Troy Stark</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/comment-page-1/#comment-12891</link>
		<dc:creator>Troy Stark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 23:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/#comment-12891</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m absolutely amazed at how many people still argue that intelligence is not a valid description of human behavior. Anyone with more than a dozen acquaintances can tell you which of them are the more intelligent. On first meeting someone, most of us quickly evaluate their intelligence, so I&#039;d be very surprised if intelligence is not something that can be objectively measured, with at least as much accuracy and meaning as how good looking someone is.  (OK, I actually think IQ can be evaluated a bit more objectively.)

It has been my experience that neither social background nor education has any real impact on intelligence. One&#039;s occupation does not seem to predict their intelligence either, though performance in any occupation does. Of course, how long a particular occupation will retain someone of high IQ definitely depends on how interesting that person finds the work and that is quite unpredictable. And, some occupations will be quite limiting for someone without a high enough IQ to perform. For example, you don&#039;t find many theoretical physicists with an IQ below 120 though they do come in a wide range of social skill.

Since education, social class and most other environmental factors seem not to have any real effect on IQ, an assertion based only on personal experience, it seems quite reasonable to look for genetic markers. And, since no race is excluded from producing brilliant people those genetic markers must be more basic to humans than are the markers for race. I think the search for such genes is well worth the effort. Note however, that being born with particular traits cannot be blamed entirely on genes. It seems that a great deal of what we are born with is a matter of chance. I&#039;m not even implying environment during development, but rather just chance. I suspect you are born with a particular IQ or g for the same reasons you are born with particular fingerprints. 

If I&#039;m right, then a more important question is how to educate people so that we, and they, get the most from what they are born with.  I think &quot;no child left behind&quot; should be replaced with &quot;no child&#039;s potential left underdeveloped&quot;.

-Troy Stark</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m absolutely amazed at how many people still argue that intelligence is not a valid description of human behavior. Anyone with more than a dozen acquaintances can tell you which of them are the more intelligent. On first meeting someone, most of us quickly evaluate their intelligence, so I&#8217;d be very surprised if intelligence is not something that can be objectively measured, with at least as much accuracy and meaning as how good looking someone is.  (OK, I actually think IQ can be evaluated a bit more objectively.)</p>
<p>It has been my experience that neither social background nor education has any real impact on intelligence. One&#8217;s occupation does not seem to predict their intelligence either, though performance in any occupation does. Of course, how long a particular occupation will retain someone of high IQ definitely depends on how interesting that person finds the work and that is quite unpredictable. And, some occupations will be quite limiting for someone without a high enough IQ to perform. For example, you don&#8217;t find many theoretical physicists with an IQ below 120 though they do come in a wide range of social skill.</p>
<p>Since education, social class and most other environmental factors seem not to have any real effect on IQ, an assertion based only on personal experience, it seems quite reasonable to look for genetic markers. And, since no race is excluded from producing brilliant people those genetic markers must be more basic to humans than are the markers for race. I think the search for such genes is well worth the effort. Note however, that being born with particular traits cannot be blamed entirely on genes. It seems that a great deal of what we are born with is a matter of chance. I&#8217;m not even implying environment during development, but rather just chance. I suspect you are born with a particular IQ or g for the same reasons you are born with particular fingerprints. </p>
<p>If I&#8217;m right, then a more important question is how to educate people so that we, and they, get the most from what they are born with.  I think &#8220;no child left behind&#8221; should be replaced with &#8220;no child&#8217;s potential left underdeveloped&#8221;.</p>
<p>-Troy Stark</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/comment-page-1/#comment-9729</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 01:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/#comment-9729</guid>
		<description>Hi Carl. The two articles you provide do not actually establish your point.

One is a study of SNPs with no proven chemical effect on anything, and thus no meaningful conclusion can be drawn from them. For all we know, they are intron polymorphisms (the paper fails to specify!), in which case it&#039;s absurd to link them to anything behavioral.

The other is a meta-analysis, enough said. If I had a dollar for every time some statistical hand-waving allowed a meta-analysis to reach an opposite conclusion from every other study on the same topic, I&#039;d be wealthy enough to pay poor kids to write this comment for me. From the perspective of scholarship, they are not worth much. Double so in the case of biology or medicine.

Also both articles beg the question they seek to discover, namely whether &quot;intelligence&quot; is a meaningful description of human behavior. In general, studies on this topic consistently fail to eliminate sufficient variables from environment to make a meaningful conclusion about a genetic basis for variations in intelligence, not including obvious cases of mental retardation or Down syndrome or something like that. The &quot;in otherwise healthy adults&quot; category still supports a null hypothesis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Carl. The two articles you provide do not actually establish your point.</p>
<p>One is a study of SNPs with no proven chemical effect on anything, and thus no meaningful conclusion can be drawn from them. For all we know, they are intron polymorphisms (the paper fails to specify!), in which case it&#8217;s absurd to link them to anything behavioral.</p>
<p>The other is a meta-analysis, enough said. If I had a dollar for every time some statistical hand-waving allowed a meta-analysis to reach an opposite conclusion from every other study on the same topic, I&#8217;d be wealthy enough to pay poor kids to write this comment for me. From the perspective of scholarship, they are not worth much. Double so in the case of biology or medicine.</p>
<p>Also both articles beg the question they seek to discover, namely whether &#8220;intelligence&#8221; is a meaningful description of human behavior. In general, studies on this topic consistently fail to eliminate sufficient variables from environment to make a meaningful conclusion about a genetic basis for variations in intelligence, not including obvious cases of mental retardation or Down syndrome or something like that. The &#8220;in otherwise healthy adults&#8221; category still supports a null hypothesis.</p>
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		<title>By: harpe éolienne</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/comment-page-1/#comment-9724</link>
		<dc:creator>harpe éolienne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:13:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/#comment-9724</guid>
		<description>[i]For example, just a handful of genes show much sign of influencing intelligence, and yet each one accounts at best for a fraction of one percent of the variation in test scores.[/i]

i think the question is how we could objectively average variables without even controlling them par avance, as seems to be the case with &#039;intelligence&#039;.
could there be such a thing as global intelligence which can be measured by IQ, i highly doubt it.

even if IQ marks were 100% accurate, how could we possibly differentiate genetic factors from environment ones which affect different parts of IQ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[i]For example, just a handful of genes show much sign of influencing intelligence, and yet each one accounts at best for a fraction of one percent of the variation in test scores.[/i]</p>
<p>i think the question is how we could objectively average variables without even controlling them par avance, as seems to be the case with &#8216;intelligence&#8217;.<br />
could there be such a thing as global intelligence which can be measured by IQ, i highly doubt it.</p>
<p>even if IQ marks were 100% accurate, how could we possibly differentiate genetic factors from environment ones which affect different parts of IQ?</p>
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		<title>By: Roy D. Schickedanz</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/comment-page-1/#comment-9717</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy D. Schickedanz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 17:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/#comment-9717</guid>
		<description>Carl Zimmer is not my favor science writer, being quite overrated. Too often Carl Zimmer distorts facts for a particular premise he seeks to pursue. Here, science and truth get quite distorted.

Intelligence and genes is certainly a case in point.

First, Carl Zimmer never answers the question why the brain in the first place.  

All organic life is cognitive because it is a Responsive Design.  Carl Zimmer is still on the shore where Evolution is guided by Darwinian conception through Natural Selection, saying nothing!

Roy D. Schickedanz
Refuting Charles Darwin in the case of Life’s Responsive Design</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl Zimmer is not my favor science writer, being quite overrated. Too often Carl Zimmer distorts facts for a particular premise he seeks to pursue. Here, science and truth get quite distorted.</p>
<p>Intelligence and genes is certainly a case in point.</p>
<p>First, Carl Zimmer never answers the question why the brain in the first place.  </p>
<p>All organic life is cognitive because it is a Responsive Design.  Carl Zimmer is still on the shore where Evolution is guided by Darwinian conception through Natural Selection, saying nothing!</p>
<p>Roy D. Schickedanz<br />
Refuting Charles Darwin in the case of Life’s Responsive Design</p>
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		<title>By: Intelligence on the Air at Noon &#124; The Loom &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/comment-page-1/#comment-9716</link>
		<dc:creator>Intelligence on the Air at Noon &#124; The Loom &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 14:34:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/#comment-9716</guid>
		<description>[...] of Mouth&#8221; on New Hampshire Public Radio at noon EST. The topic will be my new article on the biology of intelligence in Scientific American. Listen [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of Mouth&#8221; on New Hampshire Public Radio at noon EST. The topic will be my new article on the biology of intelligence in Scientific American. Listen [...]</p>
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		<title>By: DrGaryG</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/comment-page-1/#comment-9706</link>
		<dc:creator>DrGaryG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 20:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/#comment-9706</guid>
		<description>So. mice can be intelligent?  Very interesting. Here&#039;s an article arguing that there is really no such &quot;thing&quot; as inteliigence.http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst?docId=5001903843</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So. mice can be intelligent?  Very interesting. Here&#8217;s an article arguing that there is really no such &#8220;thing&#8221; as inteliigence.http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst?docId=5001903843</p>
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		<title>By: Dave&#8217;s Whiteboard &#187; Blog Archive &#187; If you&#8217;re so smart, how come?</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/comment-page-1/#comment-9678</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave&#8217;s Whiteboard &#187; Blog Archive &#187; If you&#8217;re so smart, how come?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/#comment-9678</guid>
		<description>[...] Even so, I came across this post on Razib&#8217;s Gene Expression blog, linking in turn to an article by Carl Zimmer: Genes and Intelligence: My Anti-Story. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Even so, I came across this post on Razib&#8217;s Gene Expression blog, linking in turn to an article by Carl Zimmer: Genes and Intelligence: My Anti-Story. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: trrll</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/comment-page-1/#comment-9674</link>
		<dc:creator>trrll</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 23:11:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/#comment-9674</guid>
		<description>Another comment: rather than attempting to correlate general measures of intelligence such as IQ with SNPs, it might be more productive to look for families in which a high capability in one kind of intellectual activity is linked with low capability in another kind--for example, people with high mathematical skills but difficulty with facial expressions. This might be a way of finding genes with larger effects, which might lead to genuine insights into the nature of intelligence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another comment: rather than attempting to correlate general measures of intelligence such as IQ with SNPs, it might be more productive to look for families in which a high capability in one kind of intellectual activity is linked with low capability in another kind&#8211;for example, people with high mathematical skills but difficulty with facial expressions. This might be a way of finding genes with larger effects, which might lead to genuine insights into the nature of intelligence.</p>
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		<title>By: trrll</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/comment-page-1/#comment-9673</link>
		<dc:creator>trrll</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 22:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/#comment-9673</guid>
		<description>Given what we know about the complexity of the nervous system--the number of different types of neurons, the complexity of connections, the multitude of neurotransmitter receptor subtypes with subtle functional differences, it would be astonishing if there were not a huge number of alleles impacting intelligence. Of course, there is no meaningful distinction between a gene for higher intelligence and a gene for lower intelligence--it just depends upon which one you define as &quot;normal.&quot; It is likely that most of them have effects too subtle to be detected in isolation, and that some of them interact in nonlinear ways. 

It is notable that some transgenic manipulations of mice result in animals that exhibit greater intelligence in some behavioral tests. Some of these are pretty crude manipulations, such as deleting or overexpressing a particular gene, so it seems unlikely that the apparently greater intelligence results in a benefit in a natural environment--if it did, the mutation would likely already be common. Very likely the improved intelligence in some contexts is associated with deficiencies in behaviors that are not tested in the laboratory. However, it supports the common wisdom that intelligence is multifactorial, and cannot be adequately defined by a single score.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given what we know about the complexity of the nervous system&#8211;the number of different types of neurons, the complexity of connections, the multitude of neurotransmitter receptor subtypes with subtle functional differences, it would be astonishing if there were not a huge number of alleles impacting intelligence. Of course, there is no meaningful distinction between a gene for higher intelligence and a gene for lower intelligence&#8211;it just depends upon which one you define as &#8220;normal.&#8221; It is likely that most of them have effects too subtle to be detected in isolation, and that some of them interact in nonlinear ways. </p>
<p>It is notable that some transgenic manipulations of mice result in animals that exhibit greater intelligence in some behavioral tests. Some of these are pretty crude manipulations, such as deleting or overexpressing a particular gene, so it seems unlikely that the apparently greater intelligence results in a benefit in a natural environment&#8211;if it did, the mutation would likely already be common. Very likely the improved intelligence in some contexts is associated with deficiencies in behaviors that are not tested in the laboratory. However, it supports the common wisdom that intelligence is multifactorial, and cannot be adequately defined by a single score.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Malloy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/comment-page-1/#comment-9660</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Malloy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:39:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/#comment-9660</guid>
		<description>I feel like the anti-story here is larger than IQ, and is really about what genome-wide association studies have been able to reveal about continuous traits in general at this stage. I doubt intelligence is very unique compared with other quantitative genetics traits. Height and intelligence, for example are similar in a lot of ways (e.g. similar heritabilities), and we&#039;re seeing the same stuff with the genetics of height.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2265649
https://oa.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/33645/searchfo.pdf?sequence=1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel like the anti-story here is larger than IQ, and is really about what genome-wide association studies have been able to reveal about continuous traits in general at this stage. I doubt intelligence is very unique compared with other quantitative genetics traits. Height and intelligence, for example are similar in a lot of ways (e.g. similar heritabilities), and we&#8217;re seeing the same stuff with the genetics of height.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2265649" rel="nofollow">http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2265649</a><br />
<a href="https://oa.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/33645/searchfo.pdf?sequence=1" rel="nofollow">https://oa.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/33645/searchfo.pdf?sequence=1</a></p>
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		<title>By: Curious</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/comment-page-1/#comment-9655</link>
		<dc:creator>Curious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:41:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/#comment-9655</guid>
		<description>A very fascinating summery on IQ research until now. Perhaps the most telling research, I would think, is from Turkheimer et al. that debunked gene-centric view based on identical twins.

It would be nice to have another summary of the all the researches that look at environmental factors that influence IQ. viz.,
- Parental economic conditions
- Parental verbal ability
- Food habits 
- Temperate/Tropical environment</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very fascinating summery on IQ research until now. Perhaps the most telling research, I would think, is from Turkheimer et al. that debunked gene-centric view based on identical twins.</p>
<p>It would be nice to have another summary of the all the researches that look at environmental factors that influence IQ. viz.,<br />
- Parental economic conditions<br />
- Parental verbal ability<br />
- Food habits<br />
- Temperate/Tropical environment</p>
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		<title>By: Sigmund</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/comment-page-1/#comment-9652</link>
		<dc:creator>Sigmund</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 08:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/09/19/genes-and-intelligence-my-anti-story/#comment-9652</guid>
		<description>Geoffrey, you&#039;ve brought up a point that I&#039;ve often considered. A few years back I was working in Oxford, close to one of a group involved in analysis of the genetics of Fragile-X syndrome. I&#039;m sure you know the details of this condition but for others unfamiliar the important point is that, while it frequently results in highly retarded males, its expression in females can be much less  severe. One of the societal points of this condition as pointed out to me at the time was that the mildly retarded fragile-x females were able to function in society, they just had a lower IQ - and consequently were not that good at birth control - they frequently had much more children than average, thereby increasing the numbers of carriers and thus the overall incidence in the population.
Obviously this is just one condition but one wonders if there are any other similar factors that may become exposed by studies such as the haplomapping project once we begin to compare things like reproductive rates to the data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoffrey, you&#8217;ve brought up a point that I&#8217;ve often considered. A few years back I was working in Oxford, close to one of a group involved in analysis of the genetics of Fragile-X syndrome. I&#8217;m sure you know the details of this condition but for others unfamiliar the important point is that, while it frequently results in highly retarded males, its expression in females can be much less  severe. One of the societal points of this condition as pointed out to me at the time was that the mildly retarded fragile-x females were able to function in society, they just had a lower IQ &#8211; and consequently were not that good at birth control &#8211; they frequently had much more children than average, thereby increasing the numbers of carriers and thus the overall incidence in the population.<br />
Obviously this is just one condition but one wonders if there are any other similar factors that may become exposed by studies such as the haplomapping project once we begin to compare things like reproductive rates to the data.</p>
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