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	<title>Comments on: Choose Your Top Poison</title>
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		<title>By: How Long Will Global Warming Remain Center Stage? &#124; The Yale Forum on Climate Change &#38; The Media</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10692</link>
		<dc:creator>How Long Will Global Warming Remain Center Stage? &#124; The Yale Forum on Climate Change &#38; The Media</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 15:51:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10692</guid>
		<description>[...] downplaying the threat of climate change to wildlife. Science writer Carl Zimmer wrote an excellent rebuttal along these lines (which Borrell responded [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] downplaying the threat of climate change to wildlife. Science writer Carl Zimmer wrote an excellent rebuttal along these lines (which Borrell responded [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Keith Kloor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10691</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Kloor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10691</guid>
		<description>Carl,

I believe you&#039;re correct to point out that conservation biologists are not suddenly placing all their chips on climate change as the number one threat.

But generally speaking, current environmental debates both in the blogosphere and in mainstream media center around climate change politics and policy. I well understand that this reflects the topicality of climate change in the news--from Copenhagen to George Will to recent congressional hearings and proposed legislation.

Still, I wonder if Brendan has put his finger on something larger, a whole-scale shift in the way ecologists and environmentalists view threats to ecosystems and biodiversity.  Of course this is not quantifiable. (Time for a survey?)

So while there may be, as Brendan admits, &quot;only a handful of cases where climate change policy has negatively influenced biodiversity,&quot; what&#039;s more notable to me is how the media and many environmentalists have taken to viewing big, longstanding ecological issues, as I wrote here (www.collide-a-scape.com/2009/04/23/the-killer-macguffin/), &quot;through a climate change lens.&quot;

Lastly, Brendan, I doubt you&#039;ll get much traction with your cost-benefit argument. In fact, it&#039;ll probably only reinforce the whacky idea advanced by some, that you&#039;re an &quot;embryonic Lomborg.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl,</p>
<p>I believe you&#8217;re correct to point out that conservation biologists are not suddenly placing all their chips on climate change as the number one threat.</p>
<p>But generally speaking, current environmental debates both in the blogosphere and in mainstream media center around climate change politics and policy. I well understand that this reflects the topicality of climate change in the news&#8211;from Copenhagen to George Will to recent congressional hearings and proposed legislation.</p>
<p>Still, I wonder if Brendan has put his finger on something larger, a whole-scale shift in the way ecologists and environmentalists view threats to ecosystems and biodiversity.  Of course this is not quantifiable. (Time for a survey?)</p>
<p>So while there may be, as Brendan admits, &#8220;only a handful of cases where climate change policy has negatively influenced biodiversity,&#8221; what&#8217;s more notable to me is how the media and many environmentalists have taken to viewing big, longstanding ecological issues, as I wrote here (www.collide-a-scape.com/2009/04/23/the-killer-macguffin/), &#8220;through a climate change lens.&#8221;</p>
<p>Lastly, Brendan, I doubt you&#8217;ll get much traction with your cost-benefit argument. In fact, it&#8217;ll probably only reinforce the whacky idea advanced by some, that you&#8217;re an &#8220;embryonic Lomborg.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Borrell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10690</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Borrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10690</guid>
		<description>I think there are couple of really interesting issues here.  First off, I agree that there are only a handful cases where climate change policy has negatively influenced biodiversity -- the oil palm plantations I cited before are the most vivid example.  But consider the effect of the alternative energy infrastructure -- wind farms, solar power, and dams -- on biodiversity.  Birds and bats are slamming into turbine blades.  Rivers are being choked for hydropower.  I don&#039;t know the numbers on these, but someone should do the calculations before they start crafting policy.  Right?

While a good conservationist will hedge their bets, they should generally be looking to save, for instance, the greatest number of species per dollar.  And from the consumer&#039;s perspective, a dollar spent on a hybrid vehicle may not be spent on a year&#039;s supply of shade grown coffee.

The verdict on habitat loss vs. climate may not be in, but judging from these and other comments I&#039;ve read -- that alone is news to people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there are couple of really interesting issues here.  First off, I agree that there are only a handful cases where climate change policy has negatively influenced biodiversity &#8212; the oil palm plantations I cited before are the most vivid example.  But consider the effect of the alternative energy infrastructure &#8212; wind farms, solar power, and dams &#8212; on biodiversity.  Birds and bats are slamming into turbine blades.  Rivers are being choked for hydropower.  I don&#8217;t know the numbers on these, but someone should do the calculations before they start crafting policy.  Right?</p>
<p>While a good conservationist will hedge their bets, they should generally be looking to save, for instance, the greatest number of species per dollar.  And from the consumer&#8217;s perspective, a dollar spent on a hybrid vehicle may not be spent on a year&#8217;s supply of shade grown coffee.</p>
<p>The verdict on habitat loss vs. climate may not be in, but judging from these and other comments I&#8217;ve read &#8212; that alone is news to people.</p>
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		<title>By: More on Global Warming and Habitat Destruction &#124; The Loom &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10689</link>
		<dc:creator>More on Global Warming and Habitat Destruction &#124; The Loom &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10689</guid>
		<description>[...] week I wrote about a piece in Slate in which Brendan Borrell argued that concerns over the threat to [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] week I wrote about a piece in Slate in which Brendan Borrell argued that concerns over the threat to [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Carl Zimmer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10688</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Zimmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10688</guid>
		<description>Brendan: Thanks for leaving a comment, and thanks for focusing on the science (as opposed to inciting flame wars or engaging in disingenuous quote-mining the way these conversations sometimes go). As I indicated in my post above, it&#039;s very clear that projections of extinctions due to global warming have a fairly wide range of uncertainty at the moment. Global warming might well prove to cause fewer extinctions than habitat destruction. But what evidence is there that the new concern for global warming has reduced efforts to save habitat? We&#039;ve long known that biodiversity can be threatened by combinations of factors, such as pollution and invasive species, but conservation biologists have not simply picked out a number one threat and ignored the rest. Are they really doing so now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brendan: Thanks for leaving a comment, and thanks for focusing on the science (as opposed to inciting flame wars or engaging in disingenuous quote-mining the way these conversations sometimes go). As I indicated in my post above, it&#8217;s very clear that projections of extinctions due to global warming have a fairly wide range of uncertainty at the moment. Global warming might well prove to cause fewer extinctions than habitat destruction. But what evidence is there that the new concern for global warming has reduced efforts to save habitat? We&#8217;ve long known that biodiversity can be threatened by combinations of factors, such as pollution and invasive species, but conservation biologists have not simply picked out a number one threat and ignored the rest. Are they really doing so now?</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Borrell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10687</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Borrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 09:03:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10687</guid>
		<description>Sorry for the delayed reply, but I&#039;ve been traveling in one of those spectacular hotspots that is bound to get nailed by climate change -- Africa&#039;s Cape Floral Region aka the Fynbos.  I&#039;d like to thank Carl for the thoughtful critique, and tell Dr. Don Strong that calling me an &quot;embryonic Lomborg&quot; is a bit of a low blow!  Yes, those denialists may be sending me creepy fan mail, but I&#039;m hardly cut from the same cloth.

As for Mike Lemonick&#039;s comment: I do think these types of mental exercises are important.  Battling climate change and saving biodiversity may not always be achieved via the same means and I think it is quite clear that they are often in conflict with one another.  No doubt the conflicts will become more serious in the future and folks who care about biodiversity must think carefully about how they want to craft their policies and spend their dollars.

I stand behind the central point of the Slate essay, but I&#039;ll add a bit of nuance to the discussion here.  We can all agree that in terms of extinctions, the effects climate change and habitat loss are of the same order of magnitude (i.e. factor of 10).  But after taking a close look at worldwide estimates for species loss, my money is still on habitat loss.

The two Con Bio papers that Zimmer cites deserve to be included in the debate, but they are hardly any more definitive than the analyses I mentioned in the Slate piece.  For instance, in their discussion, Malcolm et al write, &quot;The deforestation average [extinction rate] was 0.24%, which was more than twice as great as our overall SAR-based [climate] average of 0.11%.  Under certain scenarios, however, the estimates associated with climate change exceeded those with deforestation.&quot;  The scenarios they describe in which climate change beats out habitat loss are, frankly, far-fetched.

The Sekercioglu et al (2008) paper is a nice look at how climate is going to force many bird species up mountains -- and sometimes mountains don&#039;t go high enough.  But its not the &quot;last word&quot; on the bird extinction story, and the authors even write in the abstract &quot;our climate-induced extinction estimates are broadly similar to those of bird species at risk from other factors, but these estimates largely involve different sets of species.&quot;  I also know from speaking with Jetz that he&#039;s not about to temper his own findings, which fall strongly in favor of habitat loss as the biggest extinction culprit.

So where does this leave us?  Eager for more data, certainly.  But it should also be a reminder that &quot;old school&quot; conservation strategies still matter in a very big way, which is something I think many folks (and eco-conscious companies) have forgotten with all the talk of carbon offsets.  Yes, we may need to tweak our land protection schemes to take into account shifting biomes, and we may want to keep north-south corridors intact for climate-related migration.  But you can still burnish your environmental credibility by saving a chunk of land.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for the delayed reply, but I&#8217;ve been traveling in one of those spectacular hotspots that is bound to get nailed by climate change &#8212; Africa&#8217;s Cape Floral Region aka the Fynbos.  I&#8217;d like to thank Carl for the thoughtful critique, and tell Dr. Don Strong that calling me an &#8220;embryonic Lomborg&#8221; is a bit of a low blow!  Yes, those denialists may be sending me creepy fan mail, but I&#8217;m hardly cut from the same cloth.</p>
<p>As for Mike Lemonick&#8217;s comment: I do think these types of mental exercises are important.  Battling climate change and saving biodiversity may not always be achieved via the same means and I think it is quite clear that they are often in conflict with one another.  No doubt the conflicts will become more serious in the future and folks who care about biodiversity must think carefully about how they want to craft their policies and spend their dollars.</p>
<p>I stand behind the central point of the Slate essay, but I&#8217;ll add a bit of nuance to the discussion here.  We can all agree that in terms of extinctions, the effects climate change and habitat loss are of the same order of magnitude (i.e. factor of 10).  But after taking a close look at worldwide estimates for species loss, my money is still on habitat loss.</p>
<p>The two Con Bio papers that Zimmer cites deserve to be included in the debate, but they are hardly any more definitive than the analyses I mentioned in the Slate piece.  For instance, in their discussion, Malcolm et al write, &#8220;The deforestation average [extinction rate] was 0.24%, which was more than twice as great as our overall SAR-based [climate] average of 0.11%.  Under certain scenarios, however, the estimates associated with climate change exceeded those with deforestation.&#8221;  The scenarios they describe in which climate change beats out habitat loss are, frankly, far-fetched.</p>
<p>The Sekercioglu et al (2008) paper is a nice look at how climate is going to force many bird species up mountains &#8212; and sometimes mountains don&#8217;t go high enough.  But its not the &#8220;last word&#8221; on the bird extinction story, and the authors even write in the abstract &#8220;our climate-induced extinction estimates are broadly similar to those of bird species at risk from other factors, but these estimates largely involve different sets of species.&#8221;  I also know from speaking with Jetz that he&#8217;s not about to temper his own findings, which fall strongly in favor of habitat loss as the biggest extinction culprit.</p>
<p>So where does this leave us?  Eager for more data, certainly.  But it should also be a reminder that &#8220;old school&#8221; conservation strategies still matter in a very big way, which is something I think many folks (and eco-conscious companies) have forgotten with all the talk of carbon offsets.  Yes, we may need to tweak our land protection schemes to take into account shifting biomes, and we may want to keep north-south corridors intact for climate-related migration.  But you can still burnish your environmental credibility by saving a chunk of land.</p>
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		<title>By: Hey Skipper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10686</link>
		<dc:creator>Hey Skipper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10686</guid>
		<description>There was an article, not front page, in the NYT roughly two months ago that noted an astonishing resurgence in  Central America tropical rainforest acreage over the last ten or so years.  IIRC, it was due to more productive farming leading to fewer cultivated acres.

Just like has happened in the US over the last century.

Also, you might have heard the FAA is now releasing aircraft bird-strike information.  Over the last five years, flight hours have been, at best, flat.

But reported bird strikes are way up.  Why might that be?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was an article, not front page, in the NYT roughly two months ago that noted an astonishing resurgence in  Central America tropical rainforest acreage over the last ten or so years.  IIRC, it was due to more productive farming leading to fewer cultivated acres.</p>
<p>Just like has happened in the US over the last century.</p>
<p>Also, you might have heard the FAA is now releasing aircraft bird-strike information.  Over the last five years, flight hours have been, at best, flat.</p>
<p>But reported bird strikes are way up.  Why might that be?</p>
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		<title>By: Collide-a-scape &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Collide-a-scape &#62;&#62; The Killer MacGuffin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10685</link>
		<dc:creator>Collide-a-scape &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Collide-a-scape &#62;&#62; The Killer MacGuffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:42:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10685</guid>
		<description>[...] Carl Zimmer, who I have immense respect for, makes a good case that Borrell underplays the ecological fallout from climate change. In fact, Zimmer has written a [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Carl Zimmer, who I have immense respect for, makes a good case that Borrell underplays the ecological fallout from climate change. In fact, Zimmer has written a [...] </p>
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		<title>By: WhySharksMatter</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10684</link>
		<dc:creator>WhySharksMatter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:03:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10684</guid>
		<description>We&#039;re discussing this very issue on my blog, SouthernFriedScience. I&#039;d be curious to hear what you have to say, Carl.

http://southernfriedscience.com/2009/04/21/5-things-worse-for-the-planet-than-global-warming/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;re discussing this very issue on my blog, SouthernFriedScience. I&#8217;d be curious to hear what you have to say, Carl.</p>
<p><a href="http://southernfriedscience.com/2009/04/21/5-things-worse-for-the-planet-than-global-warming/" rel="nofollow">http://southernfriedscience.com/2009/04/21/5-things-worse-for-the-planet-than-global-warming/</a></p>
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		<title>By: neil</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10683</link>
		<dc:creator>neil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/04/21/choose-your-top-poison/#comment-10683</guid>
		<description>To echo Mike&#039;s comment: the land use use patterns responsible for habitat degradation (including deforestation, overgrazing, industrial ag, urban development etc.) generate greenhouse gases and tend to disrupt natural carbon sinks (though by how much is still a matter of major scientific debate).  Creating a false dichotomy between habitat loss and climate change is not likely to be helpful, anymore than agonizing over whether I should stop smoking or start exercising.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To echo Mike&#8217;s comment: the land use use patterns responsible for habitat degradation (including deforestation, overgrazing, industrial ag, urban development etc.) generate greenhouse gases and tend to disrupt natural carbon sinks (though by how much is still a matter of major scientific debate).  Creating a false dichotomy between habitat loss and climate change is not likely to be helpful, anymore than agonizing over whether I should stop smoking or start exercising.</p>
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