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	<title>Comments on: Good, Bad, and Government Funding</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/</link>
	<description>A blog about life, past and future. Written by DISCOVER contributing editor and columnist Carl Zimmer.</description>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-21420</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 22:37:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/#comment-21420</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
The over-reaction of those sounding the warning sirens about him is without foundation in fact. It’s also emotional to the point of irrationality. PZ Myers has called him “a clown,” and written that “The man is a flaming idjit.” 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is confusing real concerns about Collins advocacy of religion and how this position will affect that/be affected by it, and the content of this advocacy. As for the former, there seems to be little emotion. As for the later, Collins is exasperating for scientists, as for example when he pushes the religious &quot;fine-tuning argument&quot; on physicists that know it to be false.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
The over-reaction of those sounding the warning sirens about him is without foundation in fact. It’s also emotional to the point of irrationality. PZ Myers has called him “a clown,” and written that “The man is a flaming idjit.”
</p></blockquote>
<p>This is confusing real concerns about Collins advocacy of religion and how this position will affect that/be affected by it, and the content of this advocacy. As for the former, there seems to be little emotion. As for the later, Collins is exasperating for scientists, as for example when he pushes the religious &#8220;fine-tuning argument&#8221; on physicists that know it to be false.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-20530</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 18:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/#comment-20530</guid>
		<description>As far as supporting evolution and evolution research I wouldn&#039;t worry at all about Collins&#039; priorities. Under his direction the National Human Genome Research Institute has greatly supported the sequencing of the genomes of many species with the only justification based on evolutionary ideas.

Though he&#039;s not exactly an evolutionary biologist, he&#039;s supported a lot of genetic research based on evolution, including as a part of projects done in his own lab. In my experience he listens to informed scientists and is open to lots of possible explanations.  I wouldn&#039;t worry too too much about his ability to fine scale direct research dollars, since the vast majority of that is directed by the individual institutes. The big NIH wide initiatives may be a different story, but that shouldn&#039;t have a major negative impact on any particular line of research.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as supporting evolution and evolution research I wouldn&#8217;t worry at all about Collins&#8217; priorities. Under his direction the National Human Genome Research Institute has greatly supported the sequencing of the genomes of many species with the only justification based on evolutionary ideas.</p>
<p>Though he&#8217;s not exactly an evolutionary biologist, he&#8217;s supported a lot of genetic research based on evolution, including as a part of projects done in his own lab. In my experience he listens to informed scientists and is open to lots of possible explanations.  I wouldn&#8217;t worry too too much about his ability to fine scale direct research dollars, since the vast majority of that is directed by the individual institutes. The big NIH wide initiatives may be a different story, but that shouldn&#8217;t have a major negative impact on any particular line of research.</p>
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		<title>By: Wes</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-20455</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 17:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/#comment-20455</guid>
		<description>I think legitimate questions can be raised about Collins&#039; attitude towards science in areas where it conflicts with his religious beliefs.  

Some quotes from Collins&#039; &lt;i&gt;The Language of God&lt;/i&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;After all, there are clearly parts of the Bible that are written as eyewitness accounts of historical events, including much of the New Testament.  For a believer, the events recorded in these sections ought to be taken as the writer intended--as descriptions of observed fact. --  p. 175&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Collins is here contradicting basically all textual scholarship on the Bible for the last 200 years. The Gospels, for instance, are not in any way eyewitness accounts.  They don&#039;t even claim to be!

&lt;blockquote&gt;1. The universe came into being out of nothingness, approximately 14 billion years ago.
2. Despite massive improbabilities, the properties of the universe appear to have been precisely tuned for life.

...

6. But humans are also unique in ways that define evolutionary explanation and point to our spiritual nature.  This includes the existence of the Moral Law ...and the search for God that characterizes all human cultures throughout history.

--page 200&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There&#039;s so much wrong with the above that I don&#039;t even know where to begin. For one thing, the universe is not &quot;precisely tuned for life&quot;.  The vast, vast majority of the universe is completely inhospitable to life. Also, what &quot;massive improbabilities&quot; are we talking about here? Who measured these probabilities, and using what evidence?

And we don&#039;t know if the universe &quot;came from nothing&quot;. That&#039;s pure speculation.

Item 6 is straightforward creationism.  &quot;Natural selection cannot explain X, therefore X was created by God.&quot; It&#039;s just creationism applied to one aspect of the organism, rather than the whole thing. In that regard, how is it different from Behe&#039;s false claim that certain parts of organisms, e.g. the bacterial flagellum, could not evolve and were therefore designed by God? It&#039;s anti-scientific nonsense.

Collins claim about &quot;the search for God that characterizes all human cultures throughout history&quot; would come as quite a surprise to the historians and scientists who actually study these cultures.  It takes quite a bit of cultural chauvinism to think that all human cultures are seeking after the god that happens to be believed in the culture you happen to inhabit.  The truth is, what a Westerner thinks of as  &quot;god&quot; frequently has no analogue in many other cultures.



I could go on.  The book is filled with outright nonsense which sounds very similar to creationism to my ears.  Anyone who reads Collins&#039; own writings can see there are good reasons to suspect that he might deny scientific findings when they don&#039;t fit his religious preconceptions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think legitimate questions can be raised about Collins&#8217; attitude towards science in areas where it conflicts with his religious beliefs.  </p>
<p>Some quotes from Collins&#8217; <i>The Language of God</i>:</p>
<blockquote><p>After all, there are clearly parts of the Bible that are written as eyewitness accounts of historical events, including much of the New Testament.  For a believer, the events recorded in these sections ought to be taken as the writer intended&#8211;as descriptions of observed fact. &#8212;  p. 175</p></blockquote>
<p>Collins is here contradicting basically all textual scholarship on the Bible for the last 200 years. The Gospels, for instance, are not in any way eyewitness accounts.  They don&#8217;t even claim to be!</p>
<blockquote><p>1. The universe came into being out of nothingness, approximately 14 billion years ago.<br />
2. Despite massive improbabilities, the properties of the universe appear to have been precisely tuned for life.</p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
<p>6. But humans are also unique in ways that define evolutionary explanation and point to our spiritual nature.  This includes the existence of the Moral Law &#8230;and the search for God that characterizes all human cultures throughout history.</p>
<p>&#8211;page 200</p></blockquote>
<p>There&#8217;s so much wrong with the above that I don&#8217;t even know where to begin. For one thing, the universe is not &#8220;precisely tuned for life&#8221;.  The vast, vast majority of the universe is completely inhospitable to life. Also, what &#8220;massive improbabilities&#8221; are we talking about here? Who measured these probabilities, and using what evidence?</p>
<p>And we don&#8217;t know if the universe &#8220;came from nothing&#8221;. That&#8217;s pure speculation.</p>
<p>Item 6 is straightforward creationism.  &#8220;Natural selection cannot explain X, therefore X was created by God.&#8221; It&#8217;s just creationism applied to one aspect of the organism, rather than the whole thing. In that regard, how is it different from Behe&#8217;s false claim that certain parts of organisms, e.g. the bacterial flagellum, could not evolve and were therefore designed by God? It&#8217;s anti-scientific nonsense.</p>
<p>Collins claim about &#8220;the search for God that characterizes all human cultures throughout history&#8221; would come as quite a surprise to the historians and scientists who actually study these cultures.  It takes quite a bit of cultural chauvinism to think that all human cultures are seeking after the god that happens to be believed in the culture you happen to inhabit.  The truth is, what a Westerner thinks of as  &#8220;god&#8221; frequently has no analogue in many other cultures.</p>
<p>I could go on.  The book is filled with outright nonsense which sounds very similar to creationism to my ears.  Anyone who reads Collins&#8217; own writings can see there are good reasons to suspect that he might deny scientific findings when they don&#8217;t fit his religious preconceptions.</p>
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		<title>By: John Kwok</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-20299</link>
		<dc:creator>John Kwok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/#comment-20299</guid>
		<description>@ Ken -

Heard Josh Rosenau from NCSE last night at a Center for Inquiry - New York meeting. Afterwards, during dinner, he agreed with me that your New York Times letter was quite fair and accurate. Sometimes you have to call a spade, a spade, and am glad you didn&#039;t mince words with your Times letter or your comments here at The Loom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Ken -</p>
<p>Heard Josh Rosenau from NCSE last night at a Center for Inquiry &#8211; New York meeting. Afterwards, during dinner, he agreed with me that your New York Times letter was quite fair and accurate. Sometimes you have to call a spade, a spade, and am glad you didn&#8217;t mince words with your Times letter or your comments here at The Loom.</p>
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		<title>By: Julia Udell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-20020</link>
		<dc:creator>Julia Udell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 18:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/#comment-20020</guid>
		<description>People&#039;s concerns with Collins as our new NIH director are not baseless - I think it&#039;s reasonable to perceive his ideology, regardless of his record with the HGP, as a potential threat to certain areas of scientific research that do clash with his beliefs. My personal concern with the is the potential influence he could have over neuroscience research - namely, in the emerging study of the neural basis of ethics and morality in a variety of animals, humans included. There are many fascinating studies on this subject on the horizon, and surely many grant proposals. I&#039;m not entirely familiar with the innerworkings of NIH bureaucracy when it comes to making funding decisions, but I&#039;m certainly not comfortable with funding for this research being subject to the scrutiny of a man who may not be prepared to accept its results:

&quot;If the moral law is just a side effect of evolution, then there is no such thing as good or evil. It’s all an illusion. We’ve been hoodwinked. Are any of us, especially the strong atheists, really prepared to live our lives within that worldview?&quot; - Collins&#039;s lecture slides from a UC Berkeley talk in 2008

I have no problem with a Christian as NIH director, but I - alongside many others, I imagine - will remain uncomfortable with the appointment until this conflict of interest is addressed. And I don&#039;t think that is an unreasonable response by any means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People&#8217;s concerns with Collins as our new NIH director are not baseless &#8211; I think it&#8217;s reasonable to perceive his ideology, regardless of his record with the HGP, as a potential threat to certain areas of scientific research that do clash with his beliefs. My personal concern with the is the potential influence he could have over neuroscience research &#8211; namely, in the emerging study of the neural basis of ethics and morality in a variety of animals, humans included. There are many fascinating studies on this subject on the horizon, and surely many grant proposals. I&#8217;m not entirely familiar with the innerworkings of NIH bureaucracy when it comes to making funding decisions, but I&#8217;m certainly not comfortable with funding for this research being subject to the scrutiny of a man who may not be prepared to accept its results:</p>
<p>&#8220;If the moral law is just a side effect of evolution, then there is no such thing as good or evil. It’s all an illusion. We’ve been hoodwinked. Are any of us, especially the strong atheists, really prepared to live our lives within that worldview?&#8221; &#8211; Collins&#8217;s lecture slides from a UC Berkeley talk in 2008</p>
<p>I have no problem with a Christian as NIH director, but I &#8211; alongside many others, I imagine &#8211; will remain uncomfortable with the appointment until this conflict of interest is addressed. And I don&#8217;t think that is an unreasonable response by any means.</p>
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		<title>By: Jackal</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-20009</link>
		<dc:creator>Jackal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/#comment-20009</guid>
		<description>You can also read Myer&#039;s response to Miller here: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/07/ken_miller_on_collins.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can also read Myer&#8217;s response to Miller here: <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/07/ken_miller_on_collins.php" rel="nofollow">http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/07/ken_miller_on_collins.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jackal</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-20008</link>
		<dc:creator>Jackal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/#comment-20008</guid>
		<description>No one is surprised that a scientist can believe in gods. No one is upset that the NIH director appointee is a theist. Some of us find disturbing is that Francis  Collins seems willing to misinterpret or disregard scientific data to make it fit his beliefs. If Collins had kept his religious beliefs separate from his science, we wouldn&#039;t be complaining. It&#039;s because &lt;a href = &quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjJAWuzno9Y&amp;eurl=http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/&amp;feature=player_embedded&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;he insists on mixing the two&lt;/a&gt;, playing the God of the Gaps card, engaging in BAD SCIENCE that we question his suitability for the post of director of the NIH. I think PZ Myers,  Jerry Coyne, and Sam Harris made it clear that it was because of his apologetics that we questioned Francis Collins&#039;s suitability for the post. This isn&#039;t about atheism vs theism. It&#039;s about dogma free science vs apologetics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one is surprised that a scientist can believe in gods. No one is upset that the NIH director appointee is a theist. Some of us find disturbing is that Francis  Collins seems willing to misinterpret or disregard scientific data to make it fit his beliefs. If Collins had kept his religious beliefs separate from his science, we wouldn&#8217;t be complaining. It&#8217;s because <a href = "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjJAWuzno9Y&#038;eurl=http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/&#038;feature=player_embedded" rel="nofollow">he insists on mixing the two</a>, playing the God of the Gaps card, engaging in BAD SCIENCE that we question his suitability for the post of director of the NIH. I think PZ Myers,  Jerry Coyne, and Sam Harris made it clear that it was because of his apologetics that we questioned Francis Collins&#8217;s suitability for the post. This isn&#8217;t about atheism vs theism. It&#8217;s about dogma free science vs apologetics.</p>
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		<title>By: Nothing new learned in 120 years? &#171; A Man With A Ph.D.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-19986</link>
		<dc:creator>Nothing new learned in 120 years? &#171; A Man With A Ph.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/#comment-19986</guid>
		<description>[...] new learned in 120&#160;years? July 28, 2009 &#8212; Richard    by woodleywonderworks Good, Bad, and Government Funding: [Via Discover Magazine &#124; RSS] The National Institutes of Health funds research on the biology of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] new learned in 120&nbsp;years? July 28, 2009 &#8212; Richard    by woodleywonderworks Good, Bad, and Government Funding: [Via Discover Magazine | RSS] The National Institutes of Health funds research on the biology of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Purrington</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-19984</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Purrington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/#comment-19984</guid>
		<description>Grant writers, at least the successful ones, are intensely aware of keywords that might be good or bad for their grant&#039;s success.  So it would be interesting to know whether his position at the helm would change this pro-science vocabulary in subtle ways, at least for the types of grant topics you mention in your post.  I personally would like to see a study funded that investigates people&#039;s ability to believe strongly in supernatural forces while fully accepting science.  E.g., are children of those who believe very strongly in both (and publish that belief) likely to have children who see the two realms as nonoverlapping?  Might be heritable just like religiosity itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grant writers, at least the successful ones, are intensely aware of keywords that might be good or bad for their grant&#8217;s success.  So it would be interesting to know whether his position at the helm would change this pro-science vocabulary in subtle ways, at least for the types of grant topics you mention in your post.  I personally would like to see a study funded that investigates people&#8217;s ability to believe strongly in supernatural forces while fully accepting science.  E.g., are children of those who believe very strongly in both (and publish that belief) likely to have children who see the two realms as nonoverlapping?  Might be heritable just like religiosity itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Marshall</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-19983</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Marshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/#comment-19983</guid>
		<description>This isn’t a debate about the scientific or administrative credentials of Collins.  We all know what is really happening.  Dawkins, Myers, Coyne, et al. have once again had their feeling hurt because the general public (or in this case President Obama) is much more comfortable with and interested in what religious scientists like Collins and Miller have to say than they are with the antitheists.   Myers et al. should quit sulking and go back to battling creationists where they can actually do some good for science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This isn’t a debate about the scientific or administrative credentials of Collins.  We all know what is really happening.  Dawkins, Myers, Coyne, et al. have once again had their feeling hurt because the general public (or in this case President Obama) is much more comfortable with and interested in what religious scientists like Collins and Miller have to say than they are with the antitheists.   Myers et al. should quit sulking and go back to battling creationists where they can actually do some good for science.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie Simon Lakehomer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-19982</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Simon Lakehomer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 15:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/#comment-19982</guid>
		<description>If one actually reads Collins’ The Language of God, one finds sound, true science.  And one finds Collins’ spiritual path.  Surprise, P.Z., it’s possible to be a scientist and believe in God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If one actually reads Collins’ The Language of God, one finds sound, true science.  And one finds Collins’ spiritual path.  Surprise, P.Z., it’s possible to be a scientist and believe in God.</p>
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		<title>By: oldcola</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-19980</link>
		<dc:creator>oldcola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/07/27/good-bad-and-government-funding/#comment-19980</guid>
		<description>Dr Miller, 

I think you are badly wrong or, worse, willingly misrepresenting PZ Myers&#039; position by saying that he opposes Collins in the name of &lt;em&gt;scientific&lt;/em&gt; reason. 
In the name of reason seems to be the right stance.

Irrationnal beliefs, those you share with Dr Collins and Dr Conway-Morris and you promote under the patronage of the Templeton Foundation, are just plain irrational, not scientifico-irrational.

&lt;strong&gt;You&lt;/strong&gt; are the ones trying to make them look as if they were supported by science hoping for some credibility. Don&#039;t project your attitude to others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr Miller, </p>
<p>I think you are badly wrong or, worse, willingly misrepresenting PZ Myers&#8217; position by saying that he opposes Collins in the name of <em>scientific</em> reason.<br />
In the name of reason seems to be the right stance.</p>
<p>Irrationnal beliefs, those you share with Dr Collins and Dr Conway-Morris and you promote under the patronage of the Templeton Foundation, are just plain irrational, not scientifico-irrational.</p>
<p><strong>You</strong> are the ones trying to make them look as if they were supported by science hoping for some credibility. Don&#8217;t project your attitude to others.</p>
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