Comments on: Did conflict between old and young women drive origin of menopause? http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/ Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:00:51 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: JanyRegina http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-203 JanyRegina Sat, 22 May 2010 12:51:59 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-203 TO AF: Why do you want to figure us out? In a nutshell I figure it this way. If you were a female 400 years ago, would you rather have been the queen or the mistress? Follow the power! TO AF:

Why do you want to figure us out? In a nutshell I figure it this way. If you were a female 400 years ago, would you rather have been the queen or the mistress? Follow the power!

]]> By: Paper Hand http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-202 Paper Hand Wed, 04 Feb 2009 03:55:49 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-202 <i>If young women become fertile by 15, the same age as their mothers did, these mothers will be 30. Does menopause start that early? Am I missing something?</i> Puberty generally started later in hunter-gatherer societies, so fertility probably began a bit later than 15. Menopause was also earlier. Our society has early puberty and late menopause for a number of reasons, including better nutrition, but also including artificial hormones and the like. If young women become fertile by 15, the same age as their mothers did, these mothers will be 30. Does menopause start that early? Am I missing something?
Puberty generally started later in hunter-gatherer societies, so fertility probably began a bit later than 15. Menopause was also earlier. Our society has early puberty and late menopause for a number of reasons, including better nutrition, but also including artificial hormones and the like.

]]> By: AF http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-201 AF Sun, 12 Oct 2008 03:38:22 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-201 From the post: 'In hunter-gatherer societies, mothers tend to stop being fertile at more or less the same time that their daughters become sexually mature.' Which societies are these? If young women become fertile by 15, the same age as their mothers did, these mothers will be 30. Does menopause start that early? Am I missing something? From the post: ‘In hunter-gatherer societies, mothers tend to stop being fertile at more or less the same time that their daughters become sexually mature.’
Which societies are these? If young women become fertile by 15, the same age as their mothers did, these mothers will be 30. Does menopause start that early? Am I missing something?

]]> By: sometimes I whittle the future http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-200 sometimes I whittle the future Sat, 05 Apr 2008 04:24:20 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-200 Women... you'll never figure them out. Women… you’ll never figure them out.

]]> By: nathan kirk http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-199 nathan kirk Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:37:54 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-199 One of the things i enjoyed about practicing law was the challenge of quickly gaining enough understanding of a technical area to make my expert look smarter than their expert. So if any reader has thought about law school but wonders if they'd lose the payoff they get from technical studies--go to law school. Your summary of the article and new hypothesis only seems to identify the differences in individual costs/gains in competing for group resources. In other words, you introduce the group's interest in maximizing resource application, but only discuss the individual costs/gains. If the inquiry into reasons for menopause advantage focus on individuals, there is no reason to introduce the group's interests. The focus simply remains upon the costs to the individual in continuing to bear vs. advantages in stopping to aid grandchildren. Which is the "grandmother hypothesis" without the new hypothesis. In summary: does the new hypothesis propose that uniquely-human social structure caused the group's resource allocations to favor young mothers over old? And if yes, the group's evaluation would have to be based on more than the likelihood of successful bearing and maturation of offspring--or it is just a gloss on the grandmother theory. I think the place to look might be in the uniquely-human monogamy of parents. He wants to know that he's feeding only his children. She wants to know that he's feeding only her children. Of course monogamy is not ubiquitous among humans, but it is the prevalent behavior. Thus, it is not the group's resource allocation decisions as much as it is the 2-parent dynamic that gives an advantage to a couple that shifts focus from their children to their grandchildren. One of the things i enjoyed about practicing law was the challenge of quickly gaining enough understanding of a technical area to make my expert look smarter than their expert. So if any reader has thought about law school but wonders if they’d lose the payoff they get from technical studies–go to law school.
Your summary of the article and new hypothesis only seems to identify the differences in individual costs/gains in competing for group resources. In other words, you introduce the group’s interest in maximizing resource application, but only discuss the individual costs/gains.
If the inquiry into reasons for menopause advantage focus on individuals, there is no reason to introduce the group’s interests. The focus simply remains upon the costs to the individual in continuing to bear vs. advantages in stopping to aid grandchildren. Which is the “grandmother hypothesis” without the new hypothesis.
In summary: does the new hypothesis propose that uniquely-human social structure caused the group’s resource allocations to favor young mothers over old? And if yes, the group’s evaluation would have to be based on more than the likelihood of successful bearing and maturation of offspring–or it is just a gloss on the grandmother theory.
I think the place to look might be in the uniquely-human monogamy of parents. He wants to know that he’s feeding only his children. She wants to know that he’s feeding only her children. Of course monogamy is not ubiquitous among humans, but it is the prevalent behavior. Thus, it is not the group’s resource allocation decisions as much as it is the 2-parent dynamic that gives an advantage to a couple that shifts focus from their children to their grandchildren.

]]> By: Ed Yong http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-198 Ed Yong Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:40:09 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-198 "I'm a recovering lawyer, working as a programmer. Should I keep my nose out of a science I have no training in?" Absolutely not! You have posited three hypotheses for other people to consider and done so in a modest suggestive way. I think that sort of thing is to be encouraged not sniffed at. I think that probably all three of your points and certainly 2 and 3 are dealt with by the earlier theory I blogged about - i.e. that repeated bouts of childbirth take a physical toll on a woman's body that brings costs to both her health and that of her children. That's supported by some evidence but I'm not sure as to the reasons behind those costs. “I’m a recovering lawyer, working as a programmer. Should I keep my nose out of a science I have no training in?”
Absolutely not! You have posited three hypotheses for other people to consider and done so in a modest suggestive way. I think that sort of thing is to be encouraged not sniffed at.
I think that probably all three of your points and certainly 2 and 3 are dealt with by the earlier theory I blogged about – i.e. that repeated bouts of childbirth take a physical toll on a woman’s body that brings costs to both her health and that of her children. That’s supported by some evidence but I’m not sure as to the reasons behind those costs.

]]> By: nathan kirk http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-197 nathan kirk Thu, 03 Apr 2008 18:24:04 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-197 There are 3 human characteristics that may add to the evolutionary advantage of menopause: uprightness, brain size and hidden ovulation. 1) I've read that the biological cost of building and operating larger brains requires a trade-off and that we have smaller guts than chimps. Might that also create a drawdown from a woman's reproductive organs? 2) uprightness exacts a toll on bones and joints. After a certain age, maybe the resource cost of supporting a woman and her child are greater than the likely success of raising the child plus the woman's later contribution--due to the added damage to bones & joints from pregnancy and carrying infants. That's the social group's weighing in. For the individual woman, maybe the physical toll causes there to be an advantage to supporting her grandchildren over gambling she can successfully have more of her own. 3) Maybe the biological cost of hidden ovulation takes a toll. Maybe the biological cost of always being available for intercourse takes a toll. Maybe a reproductive system can't survive too many years of constant, "unfruitful" use. (Maybe the Catholics are right--it ain't for entertainment. Our original sin occurred 5 million years ago with hidden ovulation.) Add to the mix that human males pose one of the greatest threats to female health with their jealous rages, forced obedience, and "kicking the dog--or wife" after unsuccessful status fights. And their attractiveness as targets of this violence is greatest during child-bearing years. Maybe females that had children, survived to raise them, and then became unavailable for mating had a survival advantage over females that continued to be available for mating and beating. I'm a recovering lawyer, working as a programmer. Should I keep my nose out of a science I have no training in? There are 3 human characteristics that may add to the evolutionary advantage of menopause: uprightness, brain size and hidden ovulation.
1) I’ve read that the biological cost of building and operating larger brains requires a trade-off and that we have smaller guts than chimps. Might that also create a drawdown from a woman’s reproductive organs?
2) uprightness exacts a toll on bones and joints. After a certain age, maybe the resource cost of supporting a woman and her child are greater than the likely success of raising the child plus the woman’s later contribution–due to the added damage to bones & joints from pregnancy and carrying infants. That’s the social group’s weighing in. For the individual woman, maybe the physical toll causes there to be an advantage to supporting her grandchildren over gambling she can successfully have more of her own.
3) Maybe the biological cost of hidden ovulation takes a toll. Maybe the biological cost of always being available for intercourse takes a toll. Maybe a reproductive system can’t survive too many years of constant, “unfruitful” use. (Maybe the Catholics are right–it ain’t for entertainment. Our original sin occurred 5 million years ago with hidden ovulation.)
Add to the mix that human males pose one of the greatest threats to female health with their jealous rages, forced obedience, and “kicking the dog–or wife” after unsuccessful status fights. And their attractiveness as targets of this violence is greatest during child-bearing years. Maybe females that had children, survived to raise them, and then became unavailable for mating had a survival advantage over females that continued to be available for mating and beating.
I’m a recovering lawyer, working as a programmer. Should I keep my nose out of a science I have no training in?

]]> By: Ed Yong http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-196 Ed Yong Tue, 01 Apr 2008 21:01:25 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-196 Ford - I think the model assumes that the newbie's husband was the son of one of the group members. The model's more sophisticated than I managed to describe in the post and it's probably worth checking out in full. Ford – I think the model assumes that the newbie’s husband was the son of one of the group members. The model’s more sophisticated than I managed to describe in the post and it’s probably worth checking out in full.

]]> By: Dennis http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-195 Dennis Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:44:38 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-195 Thanks for the follow-up Ed, I did miss something, apparently. Thanks for the follow-up Ed, I did miss something, apparently.

]]> By: Ford http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-194 Ford Tue, 01 Apr 2008 19:06:19 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/01/did-conflict-between-old-and-young-women-drive-origin-of-menopause/#comment-194 Assuming that is indeed the young women who are the newcomers (captives, perhaps), most existing members of the group are more related to the offspring of the older women. So if there's only enough food for some of the kids, I would expect the newbie and her husband to lose out. Assuming that is indeed the young women who are the newcomers (captives, perhaps), most existing members of the group are more related to the offspring of the older women. So if there’s only enough food for some of the kids, I would expect the newbie and her husband to lose out.

]]>