Comments on: Erasing a memory reveals the neurons that encode it http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/ Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:00:51 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: Nestor http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2763 Nestor Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:04:14 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2763 I assume this isn't as targeted as it sounds after all any fear memory would be associated with the protein. I assume this isn’t as targeted as it sounds after all any fear memory would be associated with the protein.

]]> By: notherfella http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2762 notherfella Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:28:15 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2762 How is the action of the diphtheria toxin affected by levels of CREB? From this description it sounds like Cre-expression alone would activate the receptor, making the cell vulnerable to the toxin, so I don't understand how this system is selective for cells with high CREB concentrations. How is the action of the diphtheria toxin affected by levels of CREB? From this description it sounds like Cre-expression alone would activate the receptor, making the cell vulnerable to the toxin, so I don’t understand how this system is selective for cells with high CREB concentrations.

]]> By: Nathan Myers http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2761 Nathan Myers Sat, 14 Mar 2009 10:35:09 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2761 So once the CREB-rich nerve cells are used to form a memory, and then, maybe, killed, what forms new memories? Does a different population of nerve cells become CREB-rich and get recruited for the next round? Is a stock of CREB-rich cells maintained and drawn down as needed? And does this account for the "my brain is full" feeling -- I've used up my supply of CREB-rich nerve cells, and need to accumulate another stock? I don't suppose the paper addresses this last, but somebody needs to. So once the CREB-rich nerve cells are used to form a memory, and then, maybe, killed, what forms new memories? Does a different population of nerve cells become CREB-rich and get recruited for the next round? Is a stock of CREB-rich cells maintained and drawn down as needed?
And does this account for the “my brain is full” feeling — I’ve used up my supply of CREB-rich nerve cells, and need to accumulate another stock? I don’t suppose the paper addresses this last, but somebody needs to.

]]> By: Terry http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2760 Terry Sat, 14 Mar 2009 04:39:56 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2760 Good review - but few issues - first old business. propranolol may just help alleviate the biological reaction to bad memories - and therefore it ALLOWS new associations of that experience with a calm body state - so new learning is acquired that that experience doesn't doesn't have to have that physical response. no "unlearning". in the current work, as all memories are most likely stored in a distributed net of neurons, in various structures, eliminating a large number of neurons from that pattern would eliminate the validity of the memory - much like in cognitive studies where pixels are removed from a picture until the picture could no longer be recognized. Basically, you have increased noise to signal to where teh signal is now lost in noise. and finally - how much training was involved? (Read as: I haven't read this study...) in an 'overtrained' condition, the responses may be more habitual, and less reliant on input from the amygdala, so if highly over trained CREBed (CREB neurons killed) animals responded the same as intact CREB (which is likely), what would your take be then? And would it still be a fearful reaction? Good review – but few issues – first old business. propranolol may just help alleviate the biological reaction to bad memories – and therefore it ALLOWS new associations of that experience with a calm body state – so new learning is acquired that that experience doesn’t doesn’t have to have that physical response. no “unlearning”.
in the current work, as all memories are most likely stored in a distributed net of neurons, in various structures, eliminating a large number of neurons from that pattern would eliminate the validity of the memory – much like in cognitive studies where pixels are removed from a picture until the picture could no longer be recognized. Basically, you have increased noise to signal to where teh signal is now lost in noise.
and finally – how much training was involved? (Read as: I haven’t read this study…) in an ‘overtrained’ condition, the responses may be more habitual, and less reliant on input from the amygdala, so if highly over trained CREBed (CREB neurons killed) animals responded the same as intact CREB (which is likely), what would your take be then? And would it still be a fearful reaction?

]]> By: Rick http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2759 Rick Fri, 13 Mar 2009 23:16:25 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2759 Ed, I "fear" you and/or Han may be misinterpreting the results. Could you comment on this? You write: "When a rat experiences something scary, the CREB-neurons in a part of its brain called the amygdala are responsible for storing that memory". I've not read Han's article, but from your description, there are (at least) 2 other interpretations that could explain the results: (1) The amygdala's CREB-neurons enable the only <b>Stimulus-matching-pathway into</b> wherever (maybe elsewhere) a specific fearful memory is stored. (2) The amygdala's CREB-neurons enable the only <b>Response-activation-pathway out of</b> wherever (maybe elsewhere) a specific fearful memory is stored. Thus, Han has shown (1) and/or (2), but unless there is <b>no "storage"</b> of that fearful memory except for its Input-Output circuitry, then Han has found only a portion of that specific memory storage. Does Han consider this possibility? What do you think about it? Ed, I “fear” you and/or Han may be misinterpreting the results. Could you comment on this?
You write: “When a rat experiences something scary, the CREB-neurons in a part of its brain called the amygdala are responsible for storing that memory”.
I’ve not read Han’s article, but from your description, there are (at least) 2 other interpretations that could explain the results:
(1) The amygdala’s CREB-neurons enable the only Stimulus-matching-pathway into wherever (maybe elsewhere) a specific fearful memory is stored.
(2) The amygdala’s CREB-neurons enable the only Response-activation-pathway out of wherever (maybe elsewhere) a specific fearful memory is stored.
Thus, Han has shown (1) and/or (2), but unless there is no “storage” of that fearful memory except for its Input-Output circuitry, then Han has found only a portion of that specific memory storage.
Does Han consider this possibility? What do you think about it?

]]> By: Scarybug http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2758 Scarybug Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:14:37 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2758 Sounds like a fun game. I've got a google news alert set for "Jin-Hee Han". The only story so far is on Sciencemag.org (http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2009/312/1) Which technically does get 17 Fail points. Sounds like a fun game. I’ve got a google news alert set for “Jin-Hee Han”. The only story so far is on Sciencemag.org (http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2009/312/1) Which technically does get 17 Fail points.

]]> By: Stagyar zil Doggo http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2757 Stagyar zil Doggo Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:32:18 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2757 <blockquote> Han used a lenient training regime to train these engineered mice to fear a specific sound. He then injected his CREB-Cre viruses into their amygdala and sure enough, the boost provided by the extra CREB protein improved their memories of what they had learned. </blockquote> Wait wait. If I understand this correctly, training leads to the recruitment of CREB rich neurons to form specific networks which constitute the 'trace' of the fearful memory. So how does increasing the number of CREB rich neurons in this manner improve <i>already existing</i> memories? Unless you mean that their response to <i>future</i> training is what's improved. Or is there a mechanism by which (post infection) newly available CREB rich neurons are recruited to strengthen the 'trace' of already existing memories even sans new training? Btw how many points for suggesting a memory boosting product based on this research? I was also thinking cheezy movie where the researchers in the lab - which is surely situated in a cabin fever type location for 'quarantine reasons' - get infected by a mutated version of their virus. They all go crazy as all their scariest memories become increasingly vivid and overwhelm them. Much gore and mutual bloodletting ensues. Finally, only our hero, (who warned them from the start against playing god) survives to tell the tale because his parents were anti-vaxers and didn't give him DPT shots. (He dies of Diptheria soon afterwards.)

Han used a lenient training regime to train these engineered mice to fear a specific sound. He then injected his CREB-Cre viruses into their amygdala and sure enough, the boost provided by the extra CREB protein improved their memories of what they had learned.

Wait wait. If I understand this correctly, training leads to the recruitment of CREB rich neurons to form specific networks which constitute the ‘trace’ of the fearful memory. So how does increasing the number of CREB rich neurons in this manner improve already existing memories? Unless you mean that their response to future training is what’s improved.
Or is there a mechanism by which (post infection) newly available CREB rich neurons are recruited to strengthen the ‘trace’ of already existing memories even sans new training?
Btw how many points for suggesting a memory boosting product based on this research? I was also thinking cheezy movie where the researchers in the lab – which is surely situated in a cabin fever type location for ‘quarantine reasons’ – get infected by a mutated version of their virus. They all go crazy as all their scariest memories become increasingly vivid and overwhelm them. Much gore and mutual bloodletting ensues. Finally, only our hero, (who warned them from the start against playing god) survives to tell the tale because his parents were anti-vaxers and didn’t give him DPT shots. (He dies of Diptheria soon afterwards.)

]]> By: Christie http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2756 Christie Fri, 13 Mar 2009 13:46:44 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2756 PS: How many points if they reference Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind? PS: How many points if they reference Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind?

]]> By: Christie http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2755 Christie Fri, 13 Mar 2009 02:32:57 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2755 Wow, that is some AMAZING research. That is really, really, really cool stuff! Wow, that is some AMAZING research. That is really, really, really cool stuff!

]]> By: The Science Pundit http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2754 The Science Pundit Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:05:25 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/12/erasing-a-memory-reveals-the-neurons-that-encode-it/#comment-2754 How many points for every article that uses some variation of the phrase "<i>Taken from the pages of a science fiction story ...</i>"? How many points for every article that uses some variation of the phrase “Taken from the pages of a science fiction story …“?

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