And since I’m here (I’d forgotten I’d commented here before)….

…John, of all the possible causes of autism, it has been fairly conclusively demonstrated it is NOT the scheduled vaccines.

Helen…comments *are* the places for references. These are science-blogs, evidence-based blogs. You comment on something that is new, interesting, ground-breaking or goes against standard thinking to date, you need to post a reference so readers can tell if what you are saying should be taken seriously (e.g. reliable source cited, well done study, authors’ conclusions haven’t been misrepresented, etc). For example, since you suggested checking PubMed, see here regarding formula vs breast-feeding.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22140499

Some differences but formula seems good–notice though that this is a formula with an innovative mixture of oligosaccharides, which have been added to many formulas to help mimic the effects of breast milk. Pubmed has many articles on this so if anyone makes a claim that breast-feeding is better than formula and results in healthier gut flora, they need to indicate what formulas they are talking about (the ones from the 60s, 70s, 2000s?)–if they fail to indicate the differences that may mean they don’t know there are differences and may mean they haven’t actually done any research on reliable sites, so their opinion may be based on very old research.

So when someone, like Judy, says formula-fed children develop less healthy bowel flora, but doesn’t indicate what formula types she is talking about, that sends up a red-flag. There were several other red flag statements, none of which mean she’s wrong but which do mean a closer look is warranted–and a closer looks reveals that while there are differences in gut flora between two groups, they are not labelled as healthy vs unhealthy (when it comes to oligosaccharide mixes). These differences in the long-run may indeed be unhealthy so not disagreeing there–I just want to see evidence that this is the case, and hence the need to post some references.

Another reason to post references is to educate. So, for John and others who may think vaccines are responsible, see….

antiantivax.flurf.net/

Be sure to follow his references to ensure he’s obtaining his information from reliable sources.

@ Captain Skellett: There is a huge amount of medical literature showing that babies born by caesarian have different gut flora – not just short term, but long term. PMID 18716189 is one of many.

When a baby descends through the vagina it is not just seeded on the outside of the body. Hundreds of different bacteria, viruses, fungi – commensal flora, move speedily into the nose and mouth, and by the time the baby is born, they are well on the way down into the lungs and gut.

Caesarian babies are first colonised by the hands of the doctors, nurses and devices put down the mouth, throat and lungs. They are also far more likely to then be routinely hit with broad spectrum antibiotics (standard “best” practice with no scientific evidence to back it) as will be the mother. PMID 19187750.

Caesarian delivery is association with celiac Disease: PMID 20478942. Caesarian delivery results in epigenetic modulation at birth, not seen with vaginal deliveries: PMID 19638013. Caesarian babies are more likely to have allergic rhinitis and allergy sensitization: PMID 18571710, Caesarian deliver is associated with an increased risk of type 1 childhood onset diabetes: PMID: 18292986, and are at risk of increased sensitization to food allergens: PMID 19076564. Mothers who have caesarians are far more likely to seek and request medical intervention for herself, the child and the family, than mothers who have vaginal deliveries: PMID12801309.

Caesarian delivery affects the immune system adversely and caesarian/formula fed babies have cumulative issues in this regard: PMID 10361245.

The changes in Instinal flora of caesariean babies at birth, are PERMANENTLY different to vaginally born babies: PMID 9890463. What needs to be understood from the medical literature are: First, that the colonisation as the cervix dilates, bacteria etc move up to the baby, and the baby moves down the vagina, cannot be replicated any other way. These bacteria are ingested into the baby and form the fundamental innoculum of the gut flora, and are crucial. (If a mother has been treated with repeated antibiotics that will also affect the composition of her vaginal flora and adversely impact on the baby. At the same time, vaginal deliveries cause a catecholamine surge, which kick-starts the baby’s immune system. Ideally, from there, the baby goes to the breast where a clear fluid which is pre-colostrum, contains a surfactant which helps the primary innoculum to adhere and colonise the gut. This process is reinforced in the period before colostrum. Colostrum then comes in behind the catecholamine surge, and along with antigens and other immune components, starts orchestrating the development of the baby’s immune system.

@ Michelle, yes, the gut flora of formula fed babies are very different from breastfed babies not just in bacterial composion but also in ph. Breast fed babies have a gut composition and ph which discourages the colonisation of yeast, and bacteria like E coli or other bacteria which excrete endo or exotoxin. The bacteria in the gut, modulated by breastmilk, are crucial for the optimal working of the baby’s immune system – and account for about 70% of the activity of the baby’s immune system. There are a lot of medical studies on this. If you look, you will find them. However, formula fed babies suffer from a confounders breast-fed babies don’t. Formula fed babies have five times higher the level of acute infections. So if a baby is a caesarian/formula baby, and the mother seeks earlier intervention, then serial antibiotics are a very real napalming threat to that baby’s gut flora. This results in excess illness as this 2010 study states: “If 90% of US families could comply with medical recommendations to breastfeed exclusively for 6 months, the United States would save $13 billion per year and prevent an excess 911 deaths, nearly all of which would be in infants ($10.5 billion and 741 deaths at 80% compliance),” PMID: 20368314.

That doesn’t include deaths in later years for formula fed babies which could have been avoided by breastfeeding. Better explanations need to be provided to parents that breastmilk isn’t just food. Breastmilk orchestrates the developlment of the baby’s immune system; PMID 19292608, 15603202, 18716187, 17211132, helps lay down much stronger bones PMID 15155868

Vaginal birth /breastfeeding, are the key epigenetic orchestrators of a healthy immune system PMID 16306121, and both intellectual and emotional brain development for the baby. PMID:20035247. “A shorter duration of breastfeeding may be a predictor of adverse mental health outcomes throughout the developmental trajectory of childhood and early adolescence.” PMID: 20004910. Less than six months breastfeeding was associated with poorer behaviour and higher mental health scores… a shorter duration of breastfeeding is consistently associated with increased risks for mental health problems of clinical significance throughout childhood and into adolescence” (This particular article also listed a variety of other positive indications of breastfeeding). PMID 20004910.

Caesarians are absolutely life-saving for babies under circumstances where without abdominal removal the baby would die.

What needs to happen now, is for scientists to stop talking about mice studies, take the human studies seriously and to see how they can work out a system whereby emergency caesarian babies are innoculated somehow with commensal flora as soon as possible. Elective caesarian parents should be informed of the known research, and short and long term outcomes of caesarians on their babies health.

Parents need to be told the real facts about breastmilk, instead of being deceived into believing that formula offers choice, flexibility of care, and no advantages over breastmilk. If more mothers understood the life-long superior health outcomes of breastfeeding on the health of their children, paediatricians might be pressured into putting a lot more effort into giving mothers the information and support they need to successfully breastfeed, instead of the current half-hearted lip service followed by formula samples.

First off – none of the results they see are all that striking. Sure, they’re statistically significant, but many of the changes they claim are only off by a few percent. We know there are some dramatic differences between germ-free and regular mice, these just aren’t that impressive.

Second, Hege’s point (#1) is well taken, and not just for the autism paper. Germ-free mice are known to have poor nutrition, and don’t get up to a healthy weight. I would actually be surprised if there were NO effect on neurological development based on nutrition alone. To say that the bugs are directly causing these changes is unsupported by the evidence.

Finally, speaking as a biochemist, the western blots in figure 6 are terrible.

Judi, agreed that a handful of poop would be sufficient to study the brothers’ gut microbiomes, but adrian paul blake is correct that it may be necessary to cut open his brothers’ heads to study their brain neuroanatomy and neurophysiology, though some non-invasive studies of their brains may be possible.

The HepB vaccine is given to infants within 12 hours after birth IF the mother is infected. http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/cig-gci/p04-hepb-eng.php
Being born with HepB will make any “confusion” from a yeast protein the least of the issues (do you have a reliable source talking about this confusion, btw?).

problems like asthma, allergies, autism, adhd, growth failure, eosinophilic esophagitis, and so on. Their common denominator: Something disrupted their newborn microflora environments. It happens in many different ways. It can be C-section, premature birth plus NICU time where antibiotics were given, mom breastfeeding while needing antibiotics, mom being treated for Group B strep with antibiotics, and so on.

Do you have a link to a medical academy site or peer-reviewed literature for those problems being caused by disruption of microflora environments? Anecdotal evidence is a start, but there are numerous biases that render anecdotes highly unreliable.

Did you know that children with asthma, allergies, autism, adhd, growth failure etc have all drunk juice? That 98 percent of people in jail have eaten bread? Ban juice, ban bread. I suspect you’re making the same mistake in your quote above, just like the doctor, who seeing sick people in his office, determined that the root cause of all their ailments was masturbation (and then wrote a book about it).

You have some valid points (e.g. offering C-sections too freely–this has been discussed in peer-review, btw), but by conflating them with fallacies and biases (correlation vs causation, sample bias, selective recall bias, etc), people may dismiss your valid points along with your evidence-free points. On science blogs, websites, you need to back up statements with reliable sources.

Also would like to see a link that demonstrates that babies fed on formula have less healthy bowel microflora. How do you determine what is healthy or not healthy as opposed to just “different”?