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	<title>Comments on: Scientists finish a 53-year-old classic experiment on the origins of life</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/03/21/scientists-finish-a-53-year-old-classic-experiment-on-the-origins-of-life/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/03/21/scientists-finish-a-53-year-old-classic-experiment-on-the-origins-of-life/</link>
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		<title>By: Bill Crofut</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/03/21/scientists-finish-a-53-year-old-classic-experiment-on-the-origins-of-life/#comment-11104</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Crofut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4104#comment-11104</guid>
		<description>Re: &quot;...Jim Kasting...said, “I am underwhelmed by it.” The main problem with the study is that Miller was probably wrong about the conditions on early Earth.&quot;

Prof. Kasting&#039;s assessment of the claims for the early-Earth atmosphere is far less critical (and over two decades later) than that of a pair of geologists:

	“Geological evidence often presented in favor of an early anoxic atmosphere is both contentious and ambiguous. The features that should be present in the geological record had there been such an atmosphere seem to be missing....Ever since the work of Oparin…and the success of the experiments conducted by Miller...the dogma has arisen that Earth’s early atmosphere was anoxic, probably highly reducing...Conjecture and speculation, based on a knowledge of the chemistry of living matter, gave to them the composition of their starting materials, and it would have been surprising if they had not achieved the results they did.”
[Harry Clemmey and Nick Badham. 1982. Oxygen in the Precambrian Atmosphere: An Evaluation of the geological Evidence. GEOLOGY, March, p. 141] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: &#8220;&#8230;Jim Kasting&#8230;said, “I am underwhelmed by it.” The main problem with the study is that Miller was probably wrong about the conditions on early Earth.&#8221;</p>
<p>Prof. Kasting&#8217;s assessment of the claims for the early-Earth atmosphere is far less critical (and over two decades later) than that of a pair of geologists:</p>
<p>	“Geological evidence often presented in favor of an early anoxic atmosphere is both contentious and ambiguous. The features that should be present in the geological record had there been such an atmosphere seem to be missing&#8230;.Ever since the work of Oparin…and the success of the experiments conducted by Miller&#8230;the dogma has arisen that Earth’s early atmosphere was anoxic, probably highly reducing&#8230;Conjecture and speculation, based on a knowledge of the chemistry of living matter, gave to them the composition of their starting materials, and it would have been surprising if they had not achieved the results they did.”<br />
[Harry Clemmey and Nick Badham. 1982. Oxygen in the Precambrian Atmosphere: An Evaluation of the geological Evidence. GEOLOGY, March, p. 141] </p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/03/21/scientists-finish-a-53-year-old-classic-experiment-on-the-origins-of-life/#comment-11103</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Mar 2011 23:13:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4104#comment-11103</guid>
		<description>Nicely written story.  I was wondering, isn&#039;t this something very similar to the published research someone else conducted long time ago?

http://www.springerlink.com/content/qx55749700j61652/

With Melvin Calvin&#039;s group:
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1961/calvin-bio.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicely written story.  I was wondering, isn&#8217;t this something very similar to the published research someone else conducted long time ago?</p>
<p><a href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/qx55749700j61652/" rel="nofollow">http://www.springerlink.com/content/qx55749700j61652/</a></p>
<p>With Melvin Calvin&#8217;s group:<br />
<a href="http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1961/calvin-bio.html" rel="nofollow">http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1961/calvin-bio.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: AmoebaMike</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/03/21/scientists-finish-a-53-year-old-classic-experiment-on-the-origins-of-life/#comment-11102</link>
		<dc:creator>AmoebaMike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Mar 2011 15:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4104#comment-11102</guid>
		<description>@Ed Yong, Thanks for the reference post. Yes I agree that it&#039;s very unlikely that more than one domain evolved independently. I&#039;m just not sure it&#039;s out of the realm of possibilities.

Some think life may have been brought to Earth, so in that case it would be interesting if the same building blocks that lead to life could have come about independently under the same conditions, but in two different environments.  And then when brought together, there was some intermingling of genes.

Really, this is just thinking out loud. I do appreciate the perspective though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ed Yong, Thanks for the reference post. Yes I agree that it&#8217;s very unlikely that more than one domain evolved independently. I&#8217;m just not sure it&#8217;s out of the realm of possibilities.</p>
<p>Some think life may have been brought to Earth, so in that case it would be interesting if the same building blocks that lead to life could have come about independently under the same conditions, but in two different environments.  And then when brought together, there was some intermingling of genes.</p>
<p>Really, this is just thinking out loud. I do appreciate the perspective though.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Meadon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/03/21/scientists-finish-a-53-year-old-classic-experiment-on-the-origins-of-life/#comment-11101</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Meadon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Mar 2011 11:36:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4104#comment-11101</guid>
		<description>Superb writing, and a fascinating story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Superb writing, and a fascinating story.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/03/21/scientists-finish-a-53-year-old-classic-experiment-on-the-origins-of-life/#comment-11100</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Mar 2011 09:08:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4104#comment-11100</guid>
		<description>Amazing..bunch of bottles left to sit on a shelf since 1953 and we get the answers today in 2011.
I wonder who else has similar old things given to them by their mentor. Could be more answers and stuff to write about too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amazing..bunch of bottles left to sit on a shelf since 1953 and we get the answers today in 2011.<br />
I wonder who else has similar old things given to them by their mentor. Could be more answers and stuff to write about too!</p>
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		<title>By: jaron</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/03/21/scientists-finish-a-53-year-old-classic-experiment-on-the-origins-of-life/#comment-11099</link>
		<dc:creator>jaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Mar 2011 21:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4104#comment-11099</guid>
		<description>&quot;The amino acids in Miller’s vials all come in an equal mix of two forms, each the mirror image of the other. You only see that in laboratory reactions – in nature, amino acids come almost entirely in one version.&quot;-par.10

Within this matter of fact statement of the characteristics of laboratory reactions can be found a fundamental problem with the conclusions often drawn from the Miller experiments.  It is as impossible to produce amino acids of all one type with random electrical charges as it would be to take a deck of well-shuffled cards and deal a hand of all one color off the top.

Even before tackling the problem of self-replicating DNA, an experiment successfully demonstrating the origins of life would have to identify the environment and conditions necessary to allow random chance to produce the unilateral array of amino acids.

This is not merely a technicality involving the nature of laboratory research, but one of the most important factors in an accurate analysis of the data procured through these experiments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The amino acids in Miller’s vials all come in an equal mix of two forms, each the mirror image of the other. You only see that in laboratory reactions – in nature, amino acids come almost entirely in one version.&#8221;-par.10</p>
<p>Within this matter of fact statement of the characteristics of laboratory reactions can be found a fundamental problem with the conclusions often drawn from the Miller experiments.  It is as impossible to produce amino acids of all one type with random electrical charges as it would be to take a deck of well-shuffled cards and deal a hand of all one color off the top.</p>
<p>Even before tackling the problem of self-replicating DNA, an experiment successfully demonstrating the origins of life would have to identify the environment and conditions necessary to allow random chance to produce the unilateral array of amino acids.</p>
<p>This is not merely a technicality involving the nature of laboratory research, but one of the most important factors in an accurate analysis of the data procured through these experiments.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Yong</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/03/21/scientists-finish-a-53-year-old-classic-experiment-on-the-origins-of-life/#comment-11098</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Yong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Mar 2011 19:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4104#comment-11098</guid>
		<description>@AmoebaMike - I like the &quot;ring of life&quot; model where archaea and bacteria shared a common ancestor and eukaryotes are a fusion of the two - an archaea that swallowed a bacterium, which then became a mitochondrion. &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/09/13/tree-or-ring-the-origin-of-complex-cells/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;See here&lt;/a&gt;

Regardless, it&#039;s very unlikely that any of the three domains evolved independently. The universal genetic code very strongly suggests a common origin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@AmoebaMike &#8211; I like the &#8220;ring of life&#8221; model where archaea and bacteria shared a common ancestor and eukaryotes are a fusion of the two &#8211; an archaea that swallowed a bacterium, which then became a mitochondrion. <a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/09/13/tree-or-ring-the-origin-of-complex-cells/" rel="nofollow">See here</a></p>
<p>Regardless, it&#8217;s very unlikely that any of the three domains evolved independently. The universal genetic code very strongly suggests a common origin.</p>
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		<title>By: AmoebaMike</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/03/21/scientists-finish-a-53-year-old-classic-experiment-on-the-origins-of-life/#comment-11097</link>
		<dc:creator>AmoebaMike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Mar 2011 02:53:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4104#comment-11097</guid>
		<description>@ Ed Yong,

Are there respectable theories that life may have independently come about more than once? That is, the Archaebacteria, Eubacteria, and Eukaryotes are each separated from one another in the tree of life, but shouldn&#039;t there be a common ancestor? My understanding is that Archaebacteria are possibly the common ancestor, but also, possibly not.

Then again, if all three groupings have things in common, they don&#039;t necessarily have to be related. The whole analogous/homologous thing where bees and bats developed structures (wings) for flight independent from one another. Whereas the bat&#039;s wings are way more similar to our (humans) arms, which aren&#039;t used for flying--or really locomotion at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Ed Yong,</p>
<p>Are there respectable theories that life may have independently come about more than once? That is, the Archaebacteria, Eubacteria, and Eukaryotes are each separated from one another in the tree of life, but shouldn&#8217;t there be a common ancestor? My understanding is that Archaebacteria are possibly the common ancestor, but also, possibly not.</p>
<p>Then again, if all three groupings have things in common, they don&#8217;t necessarily have to be related. The whole analogous/homologous thing where bees and bats developed structures (wings) for flight independent from one another. Whereas the bat&#8217;s wings are way more similar to our (humans) arms, which aren&#8217;t used for flying&#8211;or really locomotion at all.</p>
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		<title>By: David Kroll</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/03/21/scientists-finish-a-53-year-old-classic-experiment-on-the-origins-of-life/#comment-11096</link>
		<dc:creator>David Kroll</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Mar 2011 13:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4104#comment-11096</guid>
		<description>Indeed, we need to be critical but before we become flippant or dismissive, do remember this: amino acids are the primary building blocks in &lt;em&gt;de novo&lt;/em&gt; nucleic acid biosynthesis. Energetics aside, recall that all of the nitrogens in purines are derived from amino acids: aspartic acid, glycine, and glutamine (the remainder of the rings are from N10-formyl-tetrahydrofolate and CO2). For pyrimidines, aspartic acid is again used with the other nitrogen coming from the ATP-dependent fusion of bicarbonate and ammonia into carbamoyl phosphate.

Yes, yes, many steps away from a non-enzymatic synthesis. But all too often my students (and colleagues) are misled that amino acids cannot be the precursors of nucleic acids.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, we need to be critical but before we become flippant or dismissive, do remember this: amino acids are the primary building blocks in <em>de novo</em> nucleic acid biosynthesis. Energetics aside, recall that all of the nitrogens in purines are derived from amino acids: aspartic acid, glycine, and glutamine (the remainder of the rings are from N10-formyl-tetrahydrofolate and CO2). For pyrimidines, aspartic acid is again used with the other nitrogen coming from the ATP-dependent fusion of bicarbonate and ammonia into carbamoyl phosphate.</p>
<p>Yes, yes, many steps away from a non-enzymatic synthesis. But all too often my students (and colleagues) are misled that amino acids cannot be the precursors of nucleic acids.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Yong</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/03/21/scientists-finish-a-53-year-old-classic-experiment-on-the-origins-of-life/#comment-11095</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Yong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4104#comment-11095</guid>
		<description>@Douglas Watts - Sure, and no one I spoke to actually slated the Miller experiments. Regardless of whether they actually have much bearing on the origins of life, they really captured the imagination and basically launched an entire field of study. That counts for a lot. But Lane&#039;s point (which he elaborates more thoroughly in his book) is that the primordial soup discussions that resulted from Miller&#039;s experiments ignore the thermodynamic aspects of the origin of life. It&#039;s not simply enough to create building blocks - you need to give them an energetic nudge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Douglas Watts &#8211; Sure, and no one I spoke to actually slated the Miller experiments. Regardless of whether they actually have much bearing on the origins of life, they really captured the imagination and basically launched an entire field of study. That counts for a lot. But Lane&#8217;s point (which he elaborates more thoroughly in his book) is that the primordial soup discussions that resulted from Miller&#8217;s experiments ignore the thermodynamic aspects of the origin of life. It&#8217;s not simply enough to create building blocks &#8211; you need to give them an energetic nudge.</p>
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