Comments on: Fighting evolution with evolution – using viruses to target drug-resistant bacteria http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/05/31/fighting-evolution-with-evolution-using-viruses-to-target-drug-resistant-bacteria/ Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:00:51 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: Brian Too http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/05/31/fighting-evolution-with-evolution-using-viruses-to-target-drug-resistant-bacteria/#comment-11888 Brian Too Tue, 07 Jun 2011 00:42:23 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4643#comment-11888 I have long believed that phages are a brilliant way of attacking the problem of antibiotic resistance. It's a completely different way of approaching the treatment of infections. That's it's strength. Sure it has problems. So what? Antibiotics have problems too. That didn't stop us from productively using them. I have long believed that phages are a brilliant way of attacking the problem of antibiotic resistance. It’s a completely different way of approaching the treatment of infections. That’s it’s strength.

Sure it has problems. So what? Antibiotics have problems too. That didn’t stop us from productively using them.

]]> By: maurice http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/05/31/fighting-evolution-with-evolution-using-viruses-to-target-drug-resistant-bacteria/#comment-11887 maurice Sat, 04 Jun 2011 18:39:34 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4643#comment-11887 Topical and environmental applications make some sense (and had some degree of success in Soviet Georgia). However, at present, I see no way that phage therapy can replace the use of systemic antibiotics in people with functioning immune systems. In order to get to the bacteria causing problems, the phages would need to escape our immune systems -- they've coevolved to deal with bacterial defenses, but not mammalian ones. As soon as phages are in the bloodstream or tissues, they're gonna get whacked by the innate immune response before they can do much against the bacteria Topical and environmental applications make some sense (and had some degree of success in Soviet Georgia).
However, at present, I see no way that phage therapy can replace the use of systemic antibiotics in people with functioning immune systems.
In order to get to the bacteria causing problems, the phages would need to escape our immune systems — they’ve coevolved to deal with bacterial defenses, but not mammalian ones.
As soon as phages are in the bloodstream or tissues, they’re gonna get whacked by the innate immune response before they can do much against the bacteria

]]> By: Joman http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/05/31/fighting-evolution-with-evolution-using-viruses-to-target-drug-resistant-bacteria/#comment-11886 Joman Thu, 02 Jun 2011 05:36:53 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4643#comment-11886 Phage therapy is nothing new and I recall reading how it has been used for decades in Eastern Europe as a form of personalized medicine where custom-made cultures are grown (with minimal effort) to treat particularly resistant infections. I also remember the article pointing out that the reason that it isn't more widespread in the developed world is because due to the highly specialized nature of every culture that is made, that drug testing in such countries would require that you perform a full set of clinical trials for every phage grown for each patient. Furthermore as every page cocktail is unique to the infection it is made to treat, it would be meaningless i.e. unprofitable, to patent them as even the same type of infection may require a different cocktail depending on the strains and resistances present. Instead western research has focused on isolating the proteins/enzymes the phages use to infiltrate and infect bacterial cells in the hopes of developing a new class of drugs that can be patented but this seems like a a short-sighted approach. Phage therapy on the other hand possess the same advantage that bacteria have been using to flout antibiotic research for decades in that they can evolve ways to overcome bacterial defenses just as quickly as bacteria can evolve ways to elude them. That is far more efficient than waiting for some overworked grad student to crystallize a new protein that may or may not be a useful target for drug development. If the FDA is really concerned about the rise of antibiotic resistance, they should seriously consider revising regulations to be more friendly (and profitable) to this area of research. Phage therapy is nothing new and I recall reading how it has been used for decades in Eastern Europe as a form of personalized medicine where custom-made cultures are grown (with minimal effort) to treat particularly resistant infections.
I also remember the article pointing out that the reason that it isn’t more widespread in the developed world is because due to the highly specialized nature of every culture that is made, that drug testing in such countries would require that you perform a full set of clinical trials for every phage grown for each patient. Furthermore as every page cocktail is unique to the infection it is made to treat, it would be meaningless i.e. unprofitable, to patent them as even the same type of infection may require a different cocktail depending on the strains and resistances present.
Instead western research has focused on isolating the proteins/enzymes the phages use to infiltrate and infect bacterial cells in the hopes of developing a new class of drugs that can be patented but this seems like a a short-sighted approach. Phage therapy on the other hand possess the same advantage that bacteria have been using to flout antibiotic research for decades in that they can evolve ways to overcome bacterial defenses just as quickly as bacteria can evolve ways to elude them. That is far more efficient than waiting for some overworked grad student to crystallize a new protein that may or may not be a useful target for drug development.

If the FDA is really concerned about the rise of antibiotic resistance, they should seriously consider revising regulations to be more friendly (and profitable) to this area of research.

]]> By: Emmy http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/05/31/fighting-evolution-with-evolution-using-viruses-to-target-drug-resistant-bacteria/#comment-11885 Emmy Wed, 01 Jun 2011 19:24:50 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4643#comment-11885 @Jeff fair enough, I should have been more careful with my references. I wasn't trying to bamboozle anyone. (And I'm sure PDrone was not either). ;) @Jeff fair enough, I should have been more careful with my references. I wasn’t trying to bamboozle anyone. (And I’m sure PDrone was not either).
;)

]]> By: passionlessDrone http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/05/31/fighting-evolution-with-evolution-using-viruses-to-target-drug-resistant-bacteria/#comment-11884 passionlessDrone Wed, 01 Jun 2011 18:32:05 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4643#comment-11884 Hi Jeff - The idea is, we may need to change how they are typically used. Regarding the hygeneine hypothesis, this study showed a decrease in gestational diabetes mellitus in pregnant mothers given probiotics. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=probiotics%20gestational%20diabetes%20 Do you think this was due to the hygeine hypothesis? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20803023 -- shows a decrease in getting a cold, and the number of days sick during a cold for the control group. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20485304 -- Another blinded, placebo control study showing a reduction in sickness in children in the control group. So much for the notion that modifying the immune system is 'impossible'. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20159049 -- shows an increase in killer cell count and IL-10; which is rather contrary to the idea promoted in the SBM article that an inflammatory response is the only type of immunomodulatory effect possible from probiotics. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20735782 -- Shows significant improvement in Crohn's patients, and a transient <i>decrease</i> in inflammatory cytokines. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19555446 -- shows that infants given prebiotics have reduced hyperbilirubinaemia. Regarding goalposts, if you don't want to defend your use of 'utterly useless', that means <i>you</i> are the one shifting the goalposts. - pD Hi Jeff -

The idea is, we may need to change how they are typically used.

Regarding the hygeneine hypothesis, this study showed a decrease in gestational diabetes mellitus in pregnant mothers given probiotics.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=probiotics%20gestational%20diabetes%20

Do you think this was due to the hygeine hypothesis?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20803023 — shows a decrease in getting a cold, and the number of days sick during a cold for the control group.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20485304 — Another blinded, placebo control study showing a reduction in sickness in children in the control group.

So much for the notion that modifying the immune system is ‘impossible’.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20159049 — shows an increase in killer cell count and IL-10; which is rather contrary to the idea promoted in the SBM article that an inflammatory response is the only type of immunomodulatory effect possible from probiotics.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20735782 — Shows significant improvement in Crohn’s patients, and a transient decrease in inflammatory cytokines.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19555446 — shows that infants given prebiotics have reduced hyperbilirubinaemia.

Regarding goalposts, if you don’t want to defend your use of ‘utterly useless’, that means you are the one shifting the goalposts.

- pD

]]> By: Jeff http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/05/31/fighting-evolution-with-evolution-using-viruses-to-target-drug-resistant-bacteria/#comment-11883 Jeff Wed, 01 Jun 2011 17:21:47 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4643#comment-11883 @Emmy http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(97)70093-9/abstract This one makes a very basic statistical error (multiple comparisons) that makes me wonder how it got into a peer-reviewed journal. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1053/jhep.2003.50048/abstract This one has an n of 4. Even if they got a statistically significant result, it's meaningless. http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(00)04259-8/fulltext# This is about the hygiene hypothesis, not "healthy adults fighting infections on their own." http://www.bmj.com/content/324/7350/1361.abstract I should have moderated my original statement. Probiotics are utterly useless <b>for what you are suggesting.</b> http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(03)13490-3/fulltext Again, hygiene hypothesis. And @passionlessDrone, all of those are about the hygiene hypothesis, not probiotics as described by Emmy or typically used! Stop shifting the goalposts. @Emmy
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(97)70093-9/abstract
This one makes a very basic statistical error (multiple comparisons) that makes me wonder how it got into a peer-reviewed journal.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1053/jhep.2003.50048/abstract
This one has an n of 4. Even if they got a statistically significant result, it’s meaningless.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(00)04259-8/fulltext#
This is about the hygiene hypothesis, not “healthy adults fighting infections on their own.”

http://www.bmj.com/content/324/7350/1361.abstract
I should have moderated my original statement. Probiotics are utterly useless for what you are suggesting.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(03)13490-3/fulltext
Again, hygiene hypothesis.

And @passionlessDrone, all of those are about the hygiene hypothesis, not probiotics as described by Emmy or typically used! Stop shifting the goalposts.

]]> By: passionlessDrone http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/05/31/fighting-evolution-with-evolution-using-viruses-to-target-drug-resistant-bacteria/#comment-11882 passionlessDrone Wed, 01 Jun 2011 15:27:58 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4643#comment-11882 Hi Emmy - Thanks. The amount of data that probiotics can help infants against some types of immune mediated conditions is strong; especially agsinst the idea that they are 'utterly useless'. I'd add these to the mix. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18595980 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17208601 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19840300 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20642296 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20408346 All of these are double blind, placebo controlled studies, btw. - pD Hi Emmy -

Thanks. The amount of data that probiotics can help infants against some types of immune mediated conditions is strong; especially agsinst the idea that they are ‘utterly useless’. I’d add these to the mix.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18595980
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17208601
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19840300
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20642296
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20408346

All of these are double blind, placebo controlled studies, btw.

- pD

]]> By: Robert S-R http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/05/31/fighting-evolution-with-evolution-using-viruses-to-target-drug-resistant-bacteria/#comment-11881 Robert S-R Wed, 01 Jun 2011 14:58:04 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4643#comment-11881 Phage therapy sounds safer to me, in the long run, than antibiotics. Phages are the sniper rifles to antibiotics' flame-throwers. Extremely precise, much deadlier, and much more difficult to evolve an effective resistance to. And if a germ should evolve a resistance? The virus can also evolve a way to get past it. I, for one, welcome our new viral overlords. Phage therapy sounds safer to me, in the long run, than antibiotics. Phages are the sniper rifles to antibiotics’ flame-throwers. Extremely precise, much deadlier, and much more difficult to evolve an effective resistance to. And if a germ should evolve a resistance? The virus can also evolve a way to get past it.

I, for one, welcome our new viral overlords.

]]> By: Emmy http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/05/31/fighting-evolution-with-evolution-using-viruses-to-target-drug-resistant-bacteria/#comment-11880 Emmy Wed, 01 Jun 2011 14:44:57 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4643#comment-11880 @Jeff, you're kidding, right? The website authors you point to didn't appear to cite a single study. Unless I missed it - I didn't bother reading carefully since it looked like such a one-sided site. Here are some abstracts from actual studies - feel free to refute the findings. It's not as though I made this stuff up. http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(97)70093-9/abstract http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1053/jhep.2003.50048/abstract http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(00)04259-8/fulltext# http://www.bmj.com/content/324/7350/1361.abstract http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(03)13490-3/fulltext @Jeff, you’re kidding, right? The website authors you point to didn’t appear to cite a single study. Unless I missed it – I didn’t bother reading carefully since it looked like such a one-sided site. Here are some abstracts from actual studies – feel free to refute the findings. It’s not as though I made this stuff up.

http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(97)70093-9/abstract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1053/jhep.2003.50048/abstract

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(00)04259-8/fulltext#

http://www.bmj.com/content/324/7350/1361.abstract

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(03)13490-3/fulltext

]]> By: TheAndrewD http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/05/31/fighting-evolution-with-evolution-using-viruses-to-target-drug-resistant-bacteria/#comment-11879 TheAndrewD Wed, 01 Jun 2011 07:37:18 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4643#comment-11879 Phage will never be used therapeutically beyond limited topical applications. There are too many variables in systemic delivery; compartmentalisation, neutralisation and sequestration by the immune system.... but they are brilliant! The most promise where they are concerned is using their anti host peptides to identify novel targets and antimicrobial molecules. Phage will never be used therapeutically beyond limited topical applications. There are too many variables in systemic delivery; compartmentalisation, neutralisation and sequestration by the immune system…. but they are brilliant!

The most promise where they are concerned is using their anti host peptides to identify novel targets and antimicrobial molecules.

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