<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The extended mind â€“ how Google affects our memories</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/14/the-extended-mind-–-how-google-affects-our-memories/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/14/the-extended-mind-how-google-affects-our-memories/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:00:51 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul Matthews</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/14/the-extended-mind-how-google-affects-our-memories/#comment-12487</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Matthews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4913#comment-12487</guid>
		<description>One factor that strikes me about this is the differentiation between knowledge and skill. Just knowing how to do something does not mean you can actually do it. No matter how much you know about swimming, there is only really one way to learn, and that is to get in the water.
So availability of facts on the internet is great, and has become an essential part of our ability to survive in our modern working world, but we also need skills. Maybe you just need the fact or data or information, and that is enough. Maybe you need more to really get the informal learning available.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One factor that strikes me about this is the differentiation between knowledge and skill. Just knowing how to do something does not mean you can actually do it. No matter how much you know about swimming, there is only really one way to learn, and that is to get in the water.<br />
So availability of facts on the internet is great, and has become an essential part of our ability to survive in our modern working world, but we also need skills. Maybe you just need the fact or data or information, and that is enough. Maybe you need more to really get the informal learning available.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel J. Andrews</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/14/the-extended-mind-how-google-affects-our-memories/#comment-12486</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel J. Andrews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jul 2011 01:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4913#comment-12486</guid>
		<description>One of my grade school teachers (early 70s) used to emphasize the importance of knowing how to look things up. This was well before the computer era and we learned how to use libraries, encyclopaedias, card catalogues and all sorts of reference materials. Perhaps her influence is why my personal library is mostly reference books (several hundred of them)? Hadn&#039;t thought about that before....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of my grade school teachers (early 70s) used to emphasize the importance of knowing how to look things up. This was well before the computer era and we learned how to use libraries, encyclopaedias, card catalogues and all sorts of reference materials. Perhaps her influence is why my personal library is mostly reference books (several hundred of them)? Hadn&#8217;t thought about that before&#8230;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/14/the-extended-mind-how-google-affects-our-memories/#comment-12485</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jul 2011 07:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4913#comment-12485</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know if this Einstein anecdote is true, but if it is, then I think it&#039;s fitting:

ONE OF Einstein&#039;s colleagues asked him for his telephone number one day. Einstein reached for a telephone directory and looked it up. &quot;You don&#039;t remember your own number?&quot; the man asked, startled.
&quot;No,&quot; Einstein answered. &quot;Why should I memorize something I can so easily get from a book?&quot;
In fact, Einstein claimed never to memorize anything which could be looked up in less than two minutes.
oaks.nvg.org/sa5ra17.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if this Einstein anecdote is true, but if it is, then I think it&#8217;s fitting:</p>
<p>ONE OF Einstein&#8217;s colleagues asked him for his telephone number one day. Einstein reached for a telephone directory and looked it up. &#8220;You don&#8217;t remember your own number?&#8221; the man asked, startled.<br />
&#8220;No,&#8221; Einstein answered. &#8220;Why should I memorize something I can so easily get from a book?&#8221;<br />
In fact, Einstein claimed never to memorize anything which could be looked up in less than two minutes.<br />
oaks.nvg.org/sa5ra17.html</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eee</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/14/the-extended-mind-how-google-affects-our-memories/#comment-12484</link>
		<dc:creator>Eee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2011 20:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4913#comment-12484</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d be skeptical that people in illiterate societies have better memories than those of us in high-tech societies. There are so many secondary factors that could play a role. They may be better adapted to remember certain &lt;i&gt;types&lt;/i&gt; of information, like following a route through the woods after being told where to go. But people in modern societies also have more that they already have to remember before you even test them. It&#039;s hard to test total memory capacity when you&#039;re already starting from different levels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d be skeptical that people in illiterate societies have better memories than those of us in high-tech societies. There are so many secondary factors that could play a role. They may be better adapted to remember certain <i>types</i> of information, like following a route through the woods after being told where to go. But people in modern societies also have more that they already have to remember before you even test them. It&#8217;s hard to test total memory capacity when you&#8217;re already starting from different levels.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: E. Manhattan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/14/the-extended-mind-how-google-affects-our-memories/#comment-12483</link>
		<dc:creator>E. Manhattan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2011 15:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4913#comment-12483</guid>
		<description>In illiterate societies, people are able to remember much more detailed information at first hearing than we are.   Where I will jot down a note when I&#039;m being given simple or complex directions for how to do something or get somewhere, my illiterate ancestors would have to remember it - there was no other way to carry the information with them.

Having facts readily accessible to us is changing what we remember, but it&#039;s not eroding our ability to think clearly.   Anyone who believes that has an inexplicably rosy idea of how clearly people thought in the past.

Thinking clearly is dangerous to the established order - the history of pedagogy and politics is full of instances where teaching has been re-tooled to remove critical thinking at the behest of political or theological rulers.  Or fundamentalist school boards, here in America.   Clear thinking requires skepticism, and logic, and a firm grasp of how to evaluate evidence for reasonableness.

There are many forces in our culture which fight against those things, but the ease of getting information on the internet isn&#039;t one of those forces - in fact, it supports clear thinking by giving people the tools to verify or debunk what they are told - if they have learned how to think clearly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In illiterate societies, people are able to remember much more detailed information at first hearing than we are.   Where I will jot down a note when I&#8217;m being given simple or complex directions for how to do something or get somewhere, my illiterate ancestors would have to remember it &#8211; there was no other way to carry the information with them.</p>
<p>Having facts readily accessible to us is changing what we remember, but it&#8217;s not eroding our ability to think clearly.   Anyone who believes that has an inexplicably rosy idea of how clearly people thought in the past.</p>
<p>Thinking clearly is dangerous to the established order &#8211; the history of pedagogy and politics is full of instances where teaching has been re-tooled to remove critical thinking at the behest of political or theological rulers.  Or fundamentalist school boards, here in America.   Clear thinking requires skepticism, and logic, and a firm grasp of how to evaluate evidence for reasonableness.</p>
<p>There are many forces in our culture which fight against those things, but the ease of getting information on the internet isn&#8217;t one of those forces &#8211; in fact, it supports clear thinking by giving people the tools to verify or debunk what they are told &#8211; if they have learned how to think clearly.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ipso</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/14/the-extended-mind-how-google-affects-our-memories/#comment-12482</link>
		<dc:creator>Ipso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2011 15:26:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4913#comment-12482</guid>
		<description>Not to be asinine, but if they could, would different species of squirrels be having this debate too, about whether and whence to store one&#039;s nuts? It seems intuitive to me that the ability to find a cache is a skill crucial to survival, from Sciurids to hunter gatherers and to mortgage bankers and evolutionary biologists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to be asinine, but if they could, would different species of squirrels be having this debate too, about whether and whence to store one&#8217;s nuts? It seems intuitive to me that the ability to find a cache is a skill crucial to survival, from Sciurids to hunter gatherers and to mortgage bankers and evolutionary biologists.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eee</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/14/the-extended-mind-how-google-affects-our-memories/#comment-12481</link>
		<dc:creator>Eee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2011 12:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4913#comment-12481</guid>
		<description>@Greg: At the top of this thread you said, &quot;Iâ€™m all for social intelligence, my friend, but I see little connection between social intelligence and critical thinking, close reading, deep thinking, etc.&quot;

One of my gripes with this is that you&#039;re saying there&#039;s no correlation, but what you&#039;re arguing, actually, is that there&#039;s a &lt;i&gt;negative&lt;/i&gt; correlation. I think you should acknowledge that these are two different arguments. I bet a lot of people here would be more willing to believe the former than the latter.

To jump to the later part of the thread, you say, &quot;...I donâ€™t think remembering details of information is completely divorced from analysis, interpretation, reflection, etc. Before you can grapple with an idea, you must have the details of the idea in your mental grasp.&quot;

I don&#039;t disagree with this, but in order to make your main argument stick, you still have to prove to me that there is a real value difference between remembering something &quot;in your head&quot; versus using an outside source to remember it for you. To me, there is little difference other than a speed advantage with using your head, and a breadth advantage with using outside sources.

The point I&#039;d like to make is that there is a difference between mental processing/cogitating (what we might refer to as &quot;analysis&quot; or &quot;reflection&quot;) and strict memory. And in turn, memory itself can be broken down into both basic informational memory and procedural memory. I&#039;d offer that what you characterize as truly &quot;grasping&quot; a subject can be classified as procedural memory, and that&#039;s a separate mental module from reflection or cogitation. Developing procedural memory may require some amount of reflection, but more importantly I think it requires &lt;i&gt;practice&lt;/i&gt;, which you could define as &quot;applied reflection&quot;.

The speed of that practice--the speed at which you develop procedural memory--depends on the person, obviously. And I don&#039;t think the process of offloading the storage of information to outside media (which has been going on for millenia and is arguably human nature) is detrimental to how fast you can process or analyze. Not in and of itself.

My last point (bear with me) is this: I do think that you&#039;re on to something, but you&#039;re blaming the wrong thing. I believe that people &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; losing some of their analytical, deep-thinking power, but it has nothing to do with social/shared intelligence or the offloading of memory capacity. I think our ability to think deeply is being eroded by certain aspects of a quick-fix, info-overload culture that in some ways is a byproduct of the same media we use to so efficiently store the world&#039;s knowledge (knowledge we wouldn&#039;t be able to use otherwise). Empty hours of looking at the TV and not thinking are different than hours spent searching on PubMed, but they are born from the same technological framework.

The connectivity required to build from spoken word to written word, then to books, then libraries and universities, and now the internet, is made possible by a technological system that simultaneously creates a generation of 11-year-olds that can&#039;t spend one minute within themselves without being updated on the fleeting, unimportant thoughts of a dozen of their friends. I don&#039;t know if that will hurt the next generation, or prepare them for the world they&#039;re entering, but &lt;i&gt;there&#039;s&lt;/i&gt; your culprit. The internet in and of itself is not the culprit, it&#039;s just the medium.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Greg: At the top of this thread you said, &#8220;Iâ€™m all for social intelligence, my friend, but I see little connection between social intelligence and critical thinking, close reading, deep thinking, etc.&#8221;</p>
<p>One of my gripes with this is that you&#8217;re saying there&#8217;s no correlation, but what you&#8217;re arguing, actually, is that there&#8217;s a <i>negative</i> correlation. I think you should acknowledge that these are two different arguments. I bet a lot of people here would be more willing to believe the former than the latter.</p>
<p>To jump to the later part of the thread, you say, &#8220;&#8230;I donâ€™t think remembering details of information is completely divorced from analysis, interpretation, reflection, etc. Before you can grapple with an idea, you must have the details of the idea in your mental grasp.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t disagree with this, but in order to make your main argument stick, you still have to prove to me that there is a real value difference between remembering something &#8220;in your head&#8221; versus using an outside source to remember it for you. To me, there is little difference other than a speed advantage with using your head, and a breadth advantage with using outside sources.</p>
<p>The point I&#8217;d like to make is that there is a difference between mental processing/cogitating (what we might refer to as &#8220;analysis&#8221; or &#8220;reflection&#8221;) and strict memory. And in turn, memory itself can be broken down into both basic informational memory and procedural memory. I&#8217;d offer that what you characterize as truly &#8220;grasping&#8221; a subject can be classified as procedural memory, and that&#8217;s a separate mental module from reflection or cogitation. Developing procedural memory may require some amount of reflection, but more importantly I think it requires <i>practice</i>, which you could define as &#8220;applied reflection&#8221;.</p>
<p>The speed of that practice&#8211;the speed at which you develop procedural memory&#8211;depends on the person, obviously. And I don&#8217;t think the process of offloading the storage of information to outside media (which has been going on for millenia and is arguably human nature) is detrimental to how fast you can process or analyze. Not in and of itself.</p>
<p>My last point (bear with me) is this: I do think that you&#8217;re on to something, but you&#8217;re blaming the wrong thing. I believe that people <i>are</i> losing some of their analytical, deep-thinking power, but it has nothing to do with social/shared intelligence or the offloading of memory capacity. I think our ability to think deeply is being eroded by certain aspects of a quick-fix, info-overload culture that in some ways is a byproduct of the same media we use to so efficiently store the world&#8217;s knowledge (knowledge we wouldn&#8217;t be able to use otherwise). Empty hours of looking at the TV and not thinking are different than hours spent searching on PubMed, but they are born from the same technological framework.</p>
<p>The connectivity required to build from spoken word to written word, then to books, then libraries and universities, and now the internet, is made possible by a technological system that simultaneously creates a generation of 11-year-olds that can&#8217;t spend one minute within themselves without being updated on the fleeting, unimportant thoughts of a dozen of their friends. I don&#8217;t know if that will hurt the next generation, or prepare them for the world they&#8217;re entering, but <i>there&#8217;s</i> your culprit. The internet in and of itself is not the culprit, it&#8217;s just the medium.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Greg Graham</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/14/the-extended-mind-how-google-affects-our-memories/#comment-12480</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 22:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4913#comment-12480</guid>
		<description>Ed: http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/05/ff_nicholas_carr/all/1 (there&#039;s plenty more where that came from)

Amphiox: I get your point, but I don&#039;t think remembering details of information is completely divorced from analysis, interpretation, reflection, etc. Before you can grapple with an idea, you must have the details of the idea in your mental grasp.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed: <a href="http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/05/ff_nicholas_carr/all/1" rel="nofollow">http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/05/ff_nicholas_carr/all/1</a> (there&#8217;s plenty more where that came from)</p>
<p>Amphiox: I get your point, but I don&#8217;t think remembering details of information is completely divorced from analysis, interpretation, reflection, etc. Before you can grapple with an idea, you must have the details of the idea in your mental grasp.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ed Yong</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/14/the-extended-mind-how-google-affects-our-memories/#comment-12479</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Yong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4913#comment-12479</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Evidence indicates that child is handicapped in critical thinking.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

[Citation needed] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Evidence indicates that child is handicapped in critical thinking.</p></blockquote>
<p>[Citation needed] </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: amphiox</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/14/the-extended-mind-how-google-affects-our-memories/#comment-12478</link>
		<dc:creator>amphiox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=4913#comment-12478</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Iâ€™m all for social intelligence, my friend, but I see little connection between social intelligence and critical thinking, close reading, deep thinking, etc.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I do not see any link whatsoever between critical thinking, close reading, deep thinking, or any other remotely related processes with the two kinds of learning investigated in this study. It&#039;s a separate module of intelligence from either remembering information straight up or remembering where to find the information.

And thus it does not follow at all that those abilities would be either harmed or helped by the advent of electronic information and communication.

Also, this is not a new process. Compare the memory abilities of individuals in preliterate societies with those in societies with writing and books. This is only one small extension of a process that has its roots all the way back to the beginning of civilization itself (and perhaps even older than that).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Iâ€™m all for social intelligence, my friend, but I see little connection between social intelligence and critical thinking, close reading, deep thinking, etc.</p></blockquote>
<p>I do not see any link whatsoever between critical thinking, close reading, deep thinking, or any other remotely related processes with the two kinds of learning investigated in this study. It&#8217;s a separate module of intelligence from either remembering information straight up or remembering where to find the information.</p>
<p>And thus it does not follow at all that those abilities would be either harmed or helped by the advent of electronic information and communication.</p>
<p>Also, this is not a new process. Compare the memory abilities of individuals in preliterate societies with those in societies with writing and books. This is only one small extension of a process that has its roots all the way back to the beginning of civilization itself (and perhaps even older than that).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
