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	<title>Comments on: Earliest bird was not a bird? New fossil muddles the Archaeopteryx story</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/27/earliest-bird-was-not-a-bird-new-fossil-muddles-the-archaeopteryx-story/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/27/earliest-bird-was-not-a-bird-new-fossil-muddles-the-archaeopteryx-story/</link>
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		<title>By: Emmy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/27/earliest-bird-was-not-a-bird-new-fossil-muddles-the-archaeopteryx-story/#comment-12647</link>
		<dc:creator>Emmy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2011 00:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=5007#comment-12647</guid>
		<description>Great discussion. I have little to contribute to the science except to say that the Nova special I saw on this topic clearly demonstrated what a p***ing contest this kind of research can become when 2 scientists have clearly opposing views which then get into the media. You&#039;d think they&#039;d put their heads together for the good of discovery; although one scientist in particular seemed as though he was all about disproving the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great discussion. I have little to contribute to the science except to say that the Nova special I saw on this topic clearly demonstrated what a p***ing contest this kind of research can become when 2 scientists have clearly opposing views which then get into the media. You&#8217;d think they&#8217;d put their heads together for the good of discovery; although one scientist in particular seemed as though he was all about disproving the other.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Murphy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/27/earliest-bird-was-not-a-bird-new-fossil-muddles-the-archaeopteryx-story/#comment-12646</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 16:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=5007#comment-12646</guid>
		<description>@Ed Yong: but doesn&#039;t the statement &quot;The lineage that led to modern birds perches on a different branch of the tree&quot; imply that someone, at some point, was claiming Archaeopteryx was directly ancestral to modern birds? If the lineage that led to modern birds did, in fact, branch from Archaeopteryx, that would necessarily mean Archaeopteryx is directly ancestral to Neoaves.

And as others have pointed out, whether or not Archaeopteryx is a &quot;bird&quot; is a matter of definition: how we define birds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ed Yong: but doesn&#8217;t the statement &#8220;The lineage that led to modern birds perches on a different branch of the tree&#8221; imply that someone, at some point, was claiming Archaeopteryx was directly ancestral to modern birds? If the lineage that led to modern birds did, in fact, branch from Archaeopteryx, that would necessarily mean Archaeopteryx is directly ancestral to Neoaves.</p>
<p>And as others have pointed out, whether or not Archaeopteryx is a &#8220;bird&#8221; is a matter of definition: how we define birds.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel J. Andrews</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/27/earliest-bird-was-not-a-bird-new-fossil-muddles-the-archaeopteryx-story/#comment-12645</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel J. Andrews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=5007#comment-12645</guid>
		<description>Back in 2000 or earlier, there were discoveries of fossils that had more &#039;advanced&#039; bird features than Archaeopteryx yet were older than Archaeopteryx so my thought was that already people were thinking it was not the earliest known bird (hazy memory alert though).

I know Written in Stone has a full chapter on this so I&#039;ll have to go back and reread that chapter keeping in mind this new finding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back in 2000 or earlier, there were discoveries of fossils that had more &#8216;advanced&#8217; bird features than Archaeopteryx yet were older than Archaeopteryx so my thought was that already people were thinking it was not the earliest known bird (hazy memory alert though).</p>
<p>I know Written in Stone has a full chapter on this so I&#8217;ll have to go back and reread that chapter keeping in mind this new finding.</p>
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		<title>By: El PaleoFreak</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/27/earliest-bird-was-not-a-bird-new-fossil-muddles-the-archaeopteryx-story/#comment-12644</link>
		<dc:creator>El PaleoFreak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=5007#comment-12644</guid>
		<description>&quot;Regardless, the point is that the new family tree says that Archaeopteryx isn’t a bird at all&quot;

This is only valid with certain definitions of Aves: the ones that Xu et al. prefer.
If you use Sereno 2005, or Chiappe, 1997, or Padian, 1997, then Archaeopteryx keeps being a member of Aves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Regardless, the point is that the new family tree says that Archaeopteryx isn’t a bird at all&#8221;</p>
<p>This is only valid with certain definitions of Aves: the ones that Xu et al. prefer.<br />
If you use Sereno 2005, or Chiappe, 1997, or Padian, 1997, then Archaeopteryx keeps being a member of Aves.</p>
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		<title>By: Lars</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/27/earliest-bird-was-not-a-bird-new-fossil-muddles-the-archaeopteryx-story/#comment-12643</link>
		<dc:creator>Lars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 23:24:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=5007#comment-12643</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to propose the colloquial name &quot;trouserbirds&quot; for this group. All of the reconstructions I&#039;ve seen make them look as though they are wearing old-fashioned uniform trousers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to propose the colloquial name &#8220;trouserbirds&#8221; for this group. All of the reconstructions I&#8217;ve seen make them look as though they are wearing old-fashioned uniform trousers.</p>
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		<title>By: amphiox</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/27/earliest-bird-was-not-a-bird-new-fossil-muddles-the-archaeopteryx-story/#comment-12642</link>
		<dc:creator>amphiox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 20:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=5007#comment-12642</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Mayr is one of several palaeontologists who think that the deinonychosaurs are actually birds themselves. According to him, they’re flightless members of a group that includes Archaeopteryx and modern birds, like smaller extinct versions of today’s ostriches and emus.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Looking at the cladograms shown, this doesn&#039;t actually seem that much different a hypothesis. You&#039;re basically just taking &lt;i&gt;Paraves&lt;/i&gt; and calling them all birds, rather than calling the &lt;i&gt;Avialae&lt;/i&gt; birds and the &lt;i&gt;Deinonychosauria&lt;/i&gt; not-birds, aren&#039;t you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Mayr is one of several palaeontologists who think that the deinonychosaurs are actually birds themselves. According to him, they’re flightless members of a group that includes Archaeopteryx and modern birds, like smaller extinct versions of today’s ostriches and emus.</p></blockquote>
<p>Looking at the cladograms shown, this doesn&#8217;t actually seem that much different a hypothesis. You&#8217;re basically just taking <i>Paraves</i> and calling them all birds, rather than calling the <i>Avialae</i> birds and the <i>Deinonychosauria</i> not-birds, aren&#8217;t you?</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Yong</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/27/earliest-bird-was-not-a-bird-new-fossil-muddles-the-archaeopteryx-story/#comment-12641</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Yong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=5007#comment-12641</guid>
		<description>Hang on a minute. No one said &quot;ancestor&quot;. The first time that word comes up is in comment #1. When I talk about &quot;earliest bird&quot;, that means &quot;earliest member of the bird lineage known from the fossil record&quot;, not &quot;direct ancestor of all birds&quot;. Regardless, the point is that the new family tree says that Archaeopteryx isn&#039;t a bird at all.

Also, fully agree with Bob LaVesh&#039;s third paragraph: &quot;This in no way diminishes the important part Archaeopteryx has played historically in promoting evolutionary sciences (even if our understanding then was incorrect) – and even as an important clue between the link between dinos and birds.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hang on a minute. No one said &#8220;ancestor&#8221;. The first time that word comes up is in comment #1. When I talk about &#8220;earliest bird&#8221;, that means &#8220;earliest member of the bird lineage known from the fossil record&#8221;, not &#8220;direct ancestor of all birds&#8221;. Regardless, the point is that the new family tree says that Archaeopteryx isn&#8217;t a bird at all.</p>
<p>Also, fully agree with Bob LaVesh&#8217;s third paragraph: &#8220;This in no way diminishes the important part Archaeopteryx has played historically in promoting evolutionary sciences (even if our understanding then was incorrect) – and even as an important clue between the link between dinos and birds.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Zimmerman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/27/earliest-bird-was-not-a-bird-new-fossil-muddles-the-archaeopteryx-story/#comment-12640</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Zimmerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=5007#comment-12640</guid>
		<description>Wow

People have suggested this day would come sooner or later - it&#039;s interesting to see it may finally be here.  I can&#039;t wait to read Andrea Cau and Mickey Mortimer&#039;s thoughts (once they plug the data into their own Theropod matrices)

Whether Archie remains a bird, however, depends upon your definition of Aves.  It&#039;s only not a bird if your definition is stem based and something like &quot;modern birds and all fossil taxa closer related to birds than Dromeosaurus&quot; or some such.  On the other hand, if it&#039;s a apomorphy-based definition, say due to flight, than all Deinonychosauria may come along for the ride.

One thing he seems to have gotten wrong though is on the origins of flight.  Although none of the basal &quot;birds&quot; seem to have been great fliers, there are now taxa in bot major branches of Paraves which seem to be flighted.  Thus either flight (or at least proto-flight) evolved twice, or was basal to the entire group, meaning it might have an insectivorous origin regardless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow</p>
<p>People have suggested this day would come sooner or later &#8211; it&#8217;s interesting to see it may finally be here.  I can&#8217;t wait to read Andrea Cau and Mickey Mortimer&#8217;s thoughts (once they plug the data into their own Theropod matrices)</p>
<p>Whether Archie remains a bird, however, depends upon your definition of Aves.  It&#8217;s only not a bird if your definition is stem based and something like &#8220;modern birds and all fossil taxa closer related to birds than Dromeosaurus&#8221; or some such.  On the other hand, if it&#8217;s a apomorphy-based definition, say due to flight, than all Deinonychosauria may come along for the ride.</p>
<p>One thing he seems to have gotten wrong though is on the origins of flight.  Although none of the basal &#8220;birds&#8221; seem to have been great fliers, there are now taxa in bot major branches of Paraves which seem to be flighted.  Thus either flight (or at least proto-flight) evolved twice, or was basal to the entire group, meaning it might have an insectivorous origin regardless.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob LaVesh</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/27/earliest-bird-was-not-a-bird-new-fossil-muddles-the-archaeopteryx-story/#comment-12639</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob LaVesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:48:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=5007#comment-12639</guid>
		<description>The same is probably true for many of the &quot;known&quot; species &quot;ancestors.&quot;

It will always be very difficult to determine with a high certainty that one species begot another- we will never know with many if they are true ancestors or just a branch from a common ancestor.

This in no way diminishes the important part Archaeopteryx has played historically in promoting evolutionary sciences (even if our understanding then was incorrect) - and even as an important clue between the link between dinos and birds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The same is probably true for many of the &#8220;known&#8221; species &#8220;ancestors.&#8221;</p>
<p>It will always be very difficult to determine with a high certainty that one species begot another- we will never know with many if they are true ancestors or just a branch from a common ancestor.</p>
<p>This in no way diminishes the important part Archaeopteryx has played historically in promoting evolutionary sciences (even if our understanding then was incorrect) &#8211; and even as an important clue between the link between dinos and birds.</p>
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		<title>By: chris y</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/27/earliest-bird-was-not-a-bird-new-fossil-muddles-the-archaeopteryx-story/#comment-12638</link>
		<dc:creator>chris y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:22:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=5007#comment-12638</guid>
		<description>I wonder if there&#039;s a failure of language here. Linnaean classification works, up to a point, because in most cases it&#039;s easy to distinguish taxa at any given level, either by morphology or genetics. But it runs into serious problems in the historical dimension.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, you define &lt;i&gt;aves&lt;/i&gt; as the LCA of &lt;i&gt;Passer domesticus&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;Archaeopteryx lithographica&lt;/i&gt; and its descendents. Then you get into your time machine and go and look at this LCA. You notice that in the next valley lives a species which is almost indistiguishable, being a sibling of aforesaid LCA. In any sane world you would name it as another species within the same genus, but you&#039;ve defined &lt;i&gt;aves&lt;/i&gt; in such a way that it can&#039;t be a member. In fact, in traditional taxonomy you&#039;ve put it in a different class.

This way lies madness, it seems to me. As a total amateur in these matters, I react by thinking that &quot;What was the first bird?&quot; is a bad question, possibly meaningless, certainly unanswerable, even if we had all the data. But the popular press, at least, continues to ask it. What&#039;s a simple soul to do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if there&#8217;s a failure of language here. Linnaean classification works, up to a point, because in most cases it&#8217;s easy to distinguish taxa at any given level, either by morphology or genetics. But it runs into serious problems in the historical dimension.</p>
<p>Suppose, for the sake of argument, you define <i>aves</i> as the LCA of <i>Passer domesticus</i> and <i>Archaeopteryx lithographica</i> and its descendents. Then you get into your time machine and go and look at this LCA. You notice that in the next valley lives a species which is almost indistiguishable, being a sibling of aforesaid LCA. In any sane world you would name it as another species within the same genus, but you&#8217;ve defined <i>aves</i> in such a way that it can&#8217;t be a member. In fact, in traditional taxonomy you&#8217;ve put it in a different class.</p>
<p>This way lies madness, it seems to me. As a total amateur in these matters, I react by thinking that &#8220;What was the first bird?&#8221; is a bad question, possibly meaningless, certainly unanswerable, even if we had all the data. But the popular press, at least, continues to ask it. What&#8217;s a simple soul to do?</p>
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