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	<title>Comments on: How coral snakes cause excruciating pain</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/11/16/coral-snake-venom-pain/</link>
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		<title>By: Emory Kimbrough</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/11/16/coral-snake-venom-pain/#comment-13610</link>
		<dc:creator>Emory Kimbrough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Nov 2011 07:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=5789#comment-13610</guid>
		<description>Seconding Matt K.&#039;s message above, quite a lot of on-line sources say that coral-snake bites are not particularly painful.  I also read that coral snakes frequently &quot;dry bite&quot; - strike without injecting venom.  (One source said as many as 50% of coral snake vs. human incidents are dry bites.)  I&#039;m speculating, but I wonder whether the unusually high percentage of dry bites for coral snake strikes might be at least part of the explanation for the sharply contradictory claims about coral snakes being unusually painful or unusually painless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seconding Matt K.&#8217;s message above, quite a lot of on-line sources say that coral-snake bites are not particularly painful.  I also read that coral snakes frequently &#8220;dry bite&#8221; &#8211; strike without injecting venom.  (One source said as many as 50% of coral snake vs. human incidents are dry bites.)  I&#8217;m speculating, but I wonder whether the unusually high percentage of dry bites for coral snake strikes might be at least part of the explanation for the sharply contradictory claims about coral snakes being unusually painful or unusually painless.</p>
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		<title>By: MattK</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/11/16/coral-snake-venom-pain/#comment-13609</link>
		<dc:creator>MattK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:51:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=5789#comment-13609</guid>
		<description>This was fascinating to me. Enough so that I started checking into the citations in the Nature paper. In that paper the authors state &quot;Venom from the Texas coral snake (&lt;i&gt;Micrurus tener tener&lt;/i&gt;), whose bite produces intense and unremitting pain&lt;b&gt;9&lt;/b&gt;, excites a large cohort of sensory neurons&quot;. So I checked citation 9: &lt;i&gt;Morgan, D. L., Borys, D. J., Stanford, R., Kjar, D. &amp; Tobleman, W. Texas coral snake (Micrurus tener) bites. South. Med. J. 100, 152–156 (2007) &lt;/i&gt;. This was an interesting review of all the Texas Coral Snake bites that they authors could find between 2000 and 2004. What interested me the most is that Texas Coral Snake bites are not very dangerous at all and in fact are usually mild even when antivenon is not delivered (however Eastern Coral Snakes are more dangerous). Apparently their reputation vastly overstates their macho death dealing ability. I thought that was pretty cool. Here are the conclusions of the paper: &lt;blockquote&gt;Poison Center data of 82 patients with bites from Texas coral snakes were analyzed and revealed that most were men, age 18 to 49 years old, bitten on a finger. A skin disruption at the bite site was noted for over 80%, and almost 90% had local swelling, pain, erythema, or paresthesia. Only 7.3% had systemic effects, and none of these were severe. Over half received coral snake antivenin, and 15.9% were given opioids for pain. No patient died and no patient required mechanical ventilation due to hypoventilation from the snakebite. This review of Texas coral snakebites found more severe local findings, and less severe systemic effects than previously reported. Antivenin is not needed for most of these patients, and opioids may be given safely.&lt;/blockquote&gt; The main point I want to make though, is that this paper does not seem to suport the statement that it was cited for: &quot;Texas coral snake...bite produces intense and unremitting pain&quot;. This is what the Morgan et al. say about pain: &lt;blockquote&gt;Seventy (85.4%, 95% CI: 76.1–91.4%) of the 82 patients had some abnormal finding at the bite site. Thirty-eight patients (46.3%, 95% CI: 36.0–57.1%) noted localized swelling, and 3 (3.7%) had significant swelling. Thirty-five (42.7%, 95% CI: 32.5–53.5%) patients reported some pain, and 13 (15.9%) reported more than mild pain that required multiple doses of medication. This pain frequently radiated up the arm or to the chest. Twenty-four patients (29.3%) were noted to have both pain and swelling, and two patients (2.4%) had both significant pain and significant swelling. Other local findings were erythema, paresthesia, numbness, and a small area of ecchymosis&lt;/blockquote&gt;So only 35% of patients reported any pain only 16% had pain that was severe enough to actually warrant serious analgesics.  Morgan et al also note that &quot;Previous studies report minor swelling and no pain.5,10&quot;. They also mention that two cases (of the 37 that did not receive antivenin) had &quot;severe pain&quot;. There is no description in the paper that sounds quite like &quot;intense and unremitting&quot;.  Now perhaps that sort of pain does occur, but I don&#039;t see how the authors of the Nature paper know that to be the case. This does not of couse invalidate their findings but it is irritating that they seem to have over dramatized the background information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was fascinating to me. Enough so that I started checking into the citations in the Nature paper. In that paper the authors state &#8220;Venom from the Texas coral snake (<i>Micrurus tener tener</i>), whose bite produces intense and unremitting pain<b>9</b>, excites a large cohort of sensory neurons&#8221;. So I checked citation 9: <i>Morgan, D. L., Borys, D. J., Stanford, R., Kjar, D. &amp; Tobleman, W. Texas coral snake (Micrurus tener) bites. South. Med. J. 100, 152–156 (2007) </i>. This was an interesting review of all the Texas Coral Snake bites that they authors could find between 2000 and 2004. What interested me the most is that Texas Coral Snake bites are not very dangerous at all and in fact are usually mild even when antivenon is not delivered (however Eastern Coral Snakes are more dangerous). Apparently their reputation vastly overstates their macho death dealing ability. I thought that was pretty cool. Here are the conclusions of the paper:<br />
<blockquote>Poison Center data of 82 patients with bites from Texas coral snakes were analyzed and revealed that most were men, age 18 to 49 years old, bitten on a finger. A skin disruption at the bite site was noted for over 80%, and almost 90% had local swelling, pain, erythema, or paresthesia. Only 7.3% had systemic effects, and none of these were severe. Over half received coral snake antivenin, and 15.9% were given opioids for pain. No patient died and no patient required mechanical ventilation due to hypoventilation from the snakebite. This review of Texas coral snakebites found more severe local findings, and less severe systemic effects than previously reported. Antivenin is not needed for most of these patients, and opioids may be given safely.</p></blockquote>
<p> The main point I want to make though, is that this paper does not seem to suport the statement that it was cited for: &#8220;Texas coral snake&#8230;bite produces intense and unremitting pain&#8221;. This is what the Morgan et al. say about pain:<br />
<blockquote>Seventy (85.4%, 95% CI: 76.1–91.4%) of the 82 patients had some abnormal finding at the bite site. Thirty-eight patients (46.3%, 95% CI: 36.0–57.1%) noted localized swelling, and 3 (3.7%) had significant swelling. Thirty-five (42.7%, 95% CI: 32.5–53.5%) patients reported some pain, and 13 (15.9%) reported more than mild pain that required multiple doses of medication. This pain frequently radiated up the arm or to the chest. Twenty-four patients (29.3%) were noted to have both pain and swelling, and two patients (2.4%) had both significant pain and significant swelling. Other local findings were erythema, paresthesia, numbness, and a small area of ecchymosis</p></blockquote>
<p>So only 35% of patients reported any pain only 16% had pain that was severe enough to actually warrant serious analgesics.  Morgan et al also note that &#8220;Previous studies report minor swelling and no pain.5,10&#8243;. They also mention that two cases (of the 37 that did not receive antivenin) had &#8220;severe pain&#8221;. There is no description in the paper that sounds quite like &#8220;intense and unremitting&#8221;.  Now perhaps that sort of pain does occur, but I don&#8217;t see how the authors of the Nature paper know that to be the case. This does not of couse invalidate their findings but it is irritating that they seem to have over dramatized the background information.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/11/16/coral-snake-venom-pain/#comment-13608</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 14:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=5789#comment-13608</guid>
		<description>What excites me most about this paper is that the authors find that the toxin activates the acid sensing ion channels by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude more than is observed when they are studied in a non-toxic setting. As activation potential is unlikely to be maintained unless it is useful this hints at &#039;more potent physiological modulators for this class of excitatory channels&#039;. I wonder what other system- beyond the ability to detect changes in Ph - these ion channels are involved in and if it is linked to an even stronger physiological response...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What excites me most about this paper is that the authors find that the toxin activates the acid sensing ion channels by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude more than is observed when they are studied in a non-toxic setting. As activation potential is unlikely to be maintained unless it is useful this hints at &#8216;more potent physiological modulators for this class of excitatory channels&#8217;. I wonder what other system- beyond the ability to detect changes in Ph &#8211; these ion channels are involved in and if it is linked to an even stronger physiological response&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: carlos</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/11/16/coral-snake-venom-pain/#comment-13607</link>
		<dc:creator>carlos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 02:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=5789#comment-13607</guid>
		<description>I like your articles my 7th grade teacher is a big fan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like your articles my 7th grade teacher is a big fan</p>
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