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	<title>Comments on: Violinists canâ€™t tell the difference between Stradivarius violins and new ones</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/</link>
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		<title>By: Kristian P</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/#comment-13993</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristian P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2012 19:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6124#comment-13993</guid>
		<description>As a professional musician and amateur instrument designer, I&#039;d really like to see the full write up of the study.

The differences may be attributed to using different bows, different setups for different instruments, the playability of those instruments, the strings used etc.
Was the same piece used to test all of the violins? Did that piece encompass multiple techniques, evaluating different registers of the instrument?

It&#039;s also difficult to tell the true tone of an instrument while you are playing it - You&#039;re not exactly in an ideal position to hear it, and many of your cognitive processes are involved in actually performing on the instrument. I&#039;ve been tempted by many high end instruments in the shop, but the true test comes from recording with it.

-Because let&#039;s be real, the only person hearing the tone of a violin three inches from the soundboard is the person playing it. The audience, other orchestra members, and microphones are in a completely different position.

-----------Anecdote:
I recently purchased an incredibly expensive instrument last year. After the honeymoon period, I felt that I had possibly made a mistake - In a few recording sessions, it did not perform as well as I felt it did before.

After a period of experimenting with different strings and setups (which can cause pretty dramatic changes in voice and playability of an instrument) I found the ideal combination of string and setup for my style of playing. Direct comparison between the recordings and the different changes in setups produce VERY audible differences in tone and sound.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a professional musician and amateur instrument designer, I&#8217;d really like to see the full write up of the study.</p>
<p>The differences may be attributed to using different bows, different setups for different instruments, the playability of those instruments, the strings used etc.<br />
Was the same piece used to test all of the violins? Did that piece encompass multiple techniques, evaluating different registers of the instrument?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also difficult to tell the true tone of an instrument while you are playing it &#8211; You&#8217;re not exactly in an ideal position to hear it, and many of your cognitive processes are involved in actually performing on the instrument. I&#8217;ve been tempted by many high end instruments in the shop, but the true test comes from recording with it.</p>
<p>-Because let&#8217;s be real, the only person hearing the tone of a violin three inches from the soundboard is the person playing it. The audience, other orchestra members, and microphones are in a completely different position.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;Anecdote:<br />
I recently purchased an incredibly expensive instrument last year. After the honeymoon period, I felt that I had possibly made a mistake &#8211; In a few recording sessions, it did not perform as well as I felt it did before.</p>
<p>After a period of experimenting with different strings and setups (which can cause pretty dramatic changes in voice and playability of an instrument) I found the ideal combination of string and setup for my style of playing. Direct comparison between the recordings and the different changes in setups produce VERY audible differences in tone and sound.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike D</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/#comment-13992</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2012 14:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6124#comment-13992</guid>
		<description>&quot;As for the wine: I can tell the difference between a two buck chuck and a ten dollar wine. I can usually tell the difference between a ten dollar wine and a twenty dollar one. But I can rarely tell the difference between a twenty dollar wine and a hundred dollar one.&quot;

Yup, well said, anything over a $20 bottle is typically not noticeable....

As for the fiddles, Stradavari made some that are fantastic and some that are gulp ordinary, not every Stradivari is a great sounding instrument.  I&#039;ve played a few modern violins and modern makers make some exceptional instruments that rival any of the antique instruments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;As for the wine: I can tell the difference between a two buck chuck and a ten dollar wine. I can usually tell the difference between a ten dollar wine and a twenty dollar one. But I can rarely tell the difference between a twenty dollar wine and a hundred dollar one.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yup, well said, anything over a $20 bottle is typically not noticeable&#8230;.</p>
<p>As for the fiddles, Stradavari made some that are fantastic and some that are gulp ordinary, not every Stradivari is a great sounding instrument.  I&#8217;ve played a few modern violins and modern makers make some exceptional instruments that rival any of the antique instruments.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/#comment-13991</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 19:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6124#comment-13991</guid>
		<description>Something that I haven&#039;t seen mentioned is the fact that none of the Strads are like the master left them. They have all been highly modified in terms of neck structure, bass bar and tuning of the strings.  The Hill brothers book on Stradivari has done much to spread the Stradivari myth. There is a lot of BS in the book, Stradivari is raised to the position of a god in parts of the book, then he becomes a competent technician on other pages. It is good to see science prevail over myth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something that I haven&#8217;t seen mentioned is the fact that none of the Strads are like the master left them. They have all been highly modified in terms of neck structure, bass bar and tuning of the strings.  The Hill brothers book on Stradivari has done much to spread the Stradivari myth. There is a lot of BS in the book, Stradivari is raised to the position of a god in parts of the book, then he becomes a competent technician on other pages. It is good to see science prevail over myth.</p>
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		<title>By: tony o, Donnell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/#comment-13990</link>
		<dc:creator>tony o, Donnell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:57:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6124#comment-13990</guid>
		<description>Can we all now conclude that a great many modern violinists who play their wonderful old expensive  Stradivarius  instruments with remarkable audible brilliance sounding clear and bell like above the storm of a modern orchestra can now be assured that they can without further ado put away their wonderful sound boxes and replace them with much, much less expensive ones.Surely this would be the most economical thing to do .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can we all now conclude that a great many modern violinists who play their wonderful old expensive  Stradivarius  instruments with remarkable audible brilliance sounding clear and bell like above the storm of a modern orchestra can now be assured that they can without further ado put away their wonderful sound boxes and replace them with much, much less expensive ones.Surely this would be the most economical thing to do .</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Parmenter</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/#comment-13989</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Parmenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2012 22:49:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6124#comment-13989</guid>
		<description>When I was younger, I began to explore the wine scene.  For my 25th birthday, when I was making $60 a week, my wife bought me a bottle of wine for $25, only three years old, but well spoken of.  It was wonderful, I was on the road to wine snobbery.

Little did I know.  I bought some more touted wine, not so expensive, and it just tasted ordinary.  Another bottle, the same.  Bought some spaghetti red grocery store wine.  About the same.  I decided I wasn&#039;t really cut out for wine.  Several years later my birthday bottle, Chateau Mouton-Lafitte Rothschild, 1962, was declared one of the finest wines of the century.

Today it goes for $1000 a bottle. I peaked too soon, happy in my beer drinking, truly a wine snob.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I was younger, I began to explore the wine scene.  For my 25th birthday, when I was making $60 a week, my wife bought me a bottle of wine for $25, only three years old, but well spoken of.  It was wonderful, I was on the road to wine snobbery.</p>
<p>Little did I know.  I bought some more touted wine, not so expensive, and it just tasted ordinary.  Another bottle, the same.  Bought some spaghetti red grocery store wine.  About the same.  I decided I wasn&#8217;t really cut out for wine.  Several years later my birthday bottle, Chateau Mouton-Lafitte Rothschild, 1962, was declared one of the finest wines of the century.</p>
<p>Today it goes for $1000 a bottle. I peaked too soon, happy in my beer drinking, truly a wine snob.</p>
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		<title>By: Patanjali</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/#comment-13988</link>
		<dc:creator>Patanjali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2012 04:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6124#comment-13988</guid>
		<description>60. Alfredo, the 15 to 61 years refers to the time they have been playing, not their age!
Also, one would expect that seasoned users would have some appreciation of how to get good sounds out at short notice. I would expect them to have several instuments, or least have gone through several before arriving at their current one.

62. Gol_n_D, seems you are choosing representative cars more on the basis of their current value than their quality, BUT also implying that the the old ones are vastly better quality. The &#039;old masters&#039; were the top of their time, and this test was comparing them to the top of our time. To me your comparison is invalid, and is being illogically manipulative.

46.   Peter English, studies where those analysing the results also don&#039;t know which is which, along with the participants and testers, are called triple-blind.

57.   Vito M, you may have a point, but trying to drown opposing viewpoints by using statements such as &quot;apparently contradicting the overwhelming statistical superiority of virtuososâ€™ time-honoured experience&quot; without any citation just undermines your credibility and sounds more like sour grapes at seemingly being one of those whose beliefs were being debunked.
One doesn&#039;t necessarilly have to use an instrument for a long time to tell its basic qualities. We are not talking about new mass produced instruments that are churned out a 5 per second from some sweat factory here, but ones for which some good measure of science and craft have gone into their making.


I tend to be pragmatic. I do not care what an instrument I own now will sound like in 500 years. That is for those that might own it then. I would rather have the same quality at a cheaper price now.

Perhaps some people feel that all the &#039;vibe&#039; those virtuosos that have played an &#039;old master&#039; will rub off on them. To me, it&#039;s that &#039;vibe&#039; that puts me off antiques - years of other peoples&#039; sweat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>60. Alfredo, the 15 to 61 years refers to the time they have been playing, not their age!<br />
Also, one would expect that seasoned users would have some appreciation of how to get good sounds out at short notice. I would expect them to have several instuments, or least have gone through several before arriving at their current one.</p>
<p>62. Gol_n_D, seems you are choosing representative cars more on the basis of their current value than their quality, BUT also implying that the the old ones are vastly better quality. The &#8216;old masters&#8217; were the top of their time, and this test was comparing them to the top of our time. To me your comparison is invalid, and is being illogically manipulative.</p>
<p>46.   Peter English, studies where those analysing the results also don&#8217;t know which is which, along with the participants and testers, are called triple-blind.</p>
<p>57.   Vito M, you may have a point, but trying to drown opposing viewpoints by using statements such as &#8220;apparently contradicting the overwhelming statistical superiority of virtuososâ€™ time-honoured experience&#8221; without any citation just undermines your credibility and sounds more like sour grapes at seemingly being one of those whose beliefs were being debunked.<br />
One doesn&#8217;t necessarilly have to use an instrument for a long time to tell its basic qualities. We are not talking about new mass produced instruments that are churned out a 5 per second from some sweat factory here, but ones for which some good measure of science and craft have gone into their making.</p>
<p>I tend to be pragmatic. I do not care what an instrument I own now will sound like in 500 years. That is for those that might own it then. I would rather have the same quality at a cheaper price now.</p>
<p>Perhaps some people feel that all the &#8216;vibe&#8217; those virtuosos that have played an &#8216;old master&#8217; will rub off on them. To me, it&#8217;s that &#8216;vibe&#8217; that puts me off antiques &#8211; years of other peoples&#8217; sweat.</p>
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		<title>By: Gol_n_Dal</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/#comment-13987</link>
		<dc:creator>Gol_n_Dal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2012 05:32:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6124#comment-13987</guid>
		<description>Interesting thread:

There is no doubt in my mind that the expensive modern versions are as good as the great old ones on a purely technical basis.

Antiques, hmm would you prefer to own 1 of 600 desirable items or one made yesterday?

A car analogy: Ferrari Dino 246 or a Honda Civic type R (both ~200 BHP) ?  (for me the Dino everyday assuming I didn&#039;t need to use it everyday).

Acoustically I can&#039;t comment as I&#039;ve not heard them back to back, however, saying that I&#039;m sure that the ones tested (Â£1M to Â£30k) are all great, significantly better than Â£150 ones.  I say that looking at the comments and reviews here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting thread:</p>
<p>There is no doubt in my mind that the expensive modern versions are as good as the great old ones on a purely technical basis.</p>
<p>Antiques, hmm would you prefer to own 1 of 600 desirable items or one made yesterday?</p>
<p>A car analogy: Ferrari Dino 246 or a Honda Civic type R (both ~200 BHP) ?  (for me the Dino everyday assuming I didn&#8217;t need to use it everyday).</p>
<p>Acoustically I can&#8217;t comment as I&#8217;ve not heard them back to back, however, saying that I&#8217;m sure that the ones tested (Â£1M to Â£30k) are all great, significantly better than Â£150 ones.  I say that looking at the comments and reviews here.</p>
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		<title>By: Violinhunter</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/#comment-13986</link>
		<dc:creator>Violinhunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 15:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6124#comment-13986</guid>
		<description>New violins are not only the equal of any Strad or Guarnerius or Guadagnini or Amati or Carcassi or Storioni - they are actually BETTER. Of course, people who actually own old wood have a great vested interest in believing and arguing otherwise. In a hundred years, old violins will have degenerated to the point that they will be unplayable, especially with so much pollution in the air now. Wood is organic after all. The pyramids were once new but look at them now. Amateur listeners might not know anything about art or acoustics or wine, but they know what they LIKE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>New violins are not only the equal of any Strad or Guarnerius or Guadagnini or Amati or Carcassi or Storioni &#8211; they are actually BETTER. Of course, people who actually own old wood have a great vested interest in believing and arguing otherwise. In a hundred years, old violins will have degenerated to the point that they will be unplayable, especially with so much pollution in the air now. Wood is organic after all. The pyramids were once new but look at them now. Amateur listeners might not know anything about art or acoustics or wine, but they know what they LIKE.</p>
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		<title>By: Alfredo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/#comment-13985</link>
		<dc:creator>Alfredo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2012 20:09:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6124#comment-13985</guid>
		<description>This objective approach in to the world of Lutherie and Musical Instruments is very much needed. However, I cannot agree that a fifteen year old, no matter how virtuosic he is, has the same experience and feel of a proffesional violinist. This experiment as &quot;well controlled&quot; as it was, did not take into consideration the experience needed to reach the mastery needed to control the any of  instruments.  Kudos for at least establishing the premises of future comparisons and listening tests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This objective approach in to the world of Lutherie and Musical Instruments is very much needed. However, I cannot agree that a fifteen year old, no matter how virtuosic he is, has the same experience and feel of a proffesional violinist. This experiment as &#8220;well controlled&#8221; as it was, did not take into consideration the experience needed to reach the mastery needed to control the any of  instruments.  Kudos for at least establishing the premises of future comparisons and listening tests.</p>
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		<title>By: Dwight E. Howell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/#comment-13984</link>
		<dc:creator>Dwight E. Howell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 01:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6124#comment-13984</guid>
		<description>To the couple that thought they could tell the difference between two high end fiddles by listening to a broad cast. I don&#039;t think so. To much didn&#039;t make the trip to your end and then all you heard is the racket you speakers made. Live is much better with any acoustic instrument.

The next thing is biting. People hear things differently. They should not all prefer the same instrument. If they do some of them are telling lies.

When you pay ten or 20 for a good bottle of wine you are paying for something you have reason to think most people will like or will, at the least, approximate what you have liked in the past. When you pay 500 for one you are buying what somebody claims they prefer but you are in some ways a chump if you do so because your sensory equipment is _not_ going to be the same as theirs. That means that whatever very subtle taste issues you are paying for won&#039;t be the same as what they experience but if it makes you happy to pay more money by all means do so. You won&#039;t find any shortage of people willing to provide fermented grape juice in a high priced bottle with suitable accouterments.

Using snobbery to separate the elite from their money has always worked and always will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To the couple that thought they could tell the difference between two high end fiddles by listening to a broad cast. I don&#8217;t think so. To much didn&#8217;t make the trip to your end and then all you heard is the racket you speakers made. Live is much better with any acoustic instrument.</p>
<p>The next thing is biting. People hear things differently. They should not all prefer the same instrument. If they do some of them are telling lies.</p>
<p>When you pay ten or 20 for a good bottle of wine you are paying for something you have reason to think most people will like or will, at the least, approximate what you have liked in the past. When you pay 500 for one you are buying what somebody claims they prefer but you are in some ways a chump if you do so because your sensory equipment is _not_ going to be the same as theirs. That means that whatever very subtle taste issues you are paying for won&#8217;t be the same as what they experience but if it makes you happy to pay more money by all means do so. You won&#8217;t find any shortage of people willing to provide fermented grape juice in a high priced bottle with suitable accouterments.</p>
<p>Using snobbery to separate the elite from their money has always worked and always will.</p>
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