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	<title>Comments on: Dung fungus reveal that humans, not climate change, killed Australia’s giant beasts</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/03/22/dung-fungus-reveal-that-humans-not-climate-change-killed-australias-giant-beasts/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/03/22/dung-fungus-reveal-that-humans-not-climate-change-killed-australias-giant-beasts/</link>
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		<title>By: Goob</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/03/22/dung-fungus-reveal-that-humans-not-climate-change-killed-australias-giant-beasts/#comment-14672</link>
		<dc:creator>Goob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2012 04:56:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6607#comment-14672</guid>
		<description>Agree with Meh- Dung Fungus would be a great name for a band!!

Don&#039;t agree so much with the conclusions of the new research though. Numerous studies have shown how numerous climatic (e.g., humid v arid), hydrological (shallow water v deep water) and geomorphological (size/shape of lake or swamp) factors influence fungal abundance, concentration and preservation. These issues have not been considered at all in the new work.

Also, they argue for a mass extinction at 41 ka. If that&#039;s correct, then how come the fungus increases to near all-time highs again at 30 ka??? The authors explain it as some extant kangaroos coming into the area.... but why can&#039;t they be megaherbivores??? Or vice versa- why can&#039;t the earlier spikes just be regular kangaroos??? How can you tell the difference between fungus on a steaming pile of giant wombat turd, versus that from a growing over the dung of a kangaroo, or a koala, or a rat for that matter (note that the dung fungus is also found lots of small mammals, as well as birds and reptiles!).

Finally, that there is no climate change at or after 40 thousand years ago is a furphy. There is a massive dataset that shows that there were huge droughts at that time; the summer monsoon retracted significantly; and El Nino became super intense.

I&#039;m not supporter of either the &#039;humans did it&#039; or &#039;climate change&#039; extinction ideas, I&#039;m just saying that these scientists need to be honest about the existing datasets and what the data actually say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree with Meh- Dung Fungus would be a great name for a band!!</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t agree so much with the conclusions of the new research though. Numerous studies have shown how numerous climatic (e.g., humid v arid), hydrological (shallow water v deep water) and geomorphological (size/shape of lake or swamp) factors influence fungal abundance, concentration and preservation. These issues have not been considered at all in the new work.</p>
<p>Also, they argue for a mass extinction at 41 ka. If that&#8217;s correct, then how come the fungus increases to near all-time highs again at 30 ka??? The authors explain it as some extant kangaroos coming into the area&#8230;. but why can&#8217;t they be megaherbivores??? Or vice versa- why can&#8217;t the earlier spikes just be regular kangaroos??? How can you tell the difference between fungus on a steaming pile of giant wombat turd, versus that from a growing over the dung of a kangaroo, or a koala, or a rat for that matter (note that the dung fungus is also found lots of small mammals, as well as birds and reptiles!).</p>
<p>Finally, that there is no climate change at or after 40 thousand years ago is a furphy. There is a massive dataset that shows that there were huge droughts at that time; the summer monsoon retracted significantly; and El Nino became super intense.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not supporter of either the &#8216;humans did it&#8217; or &#8216;climate change&#8217; extinction ideas, I&#8217;m just saying that these scientists need to be honest about the existing datasets and what the data actually say.</p>
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		<title>By: amphiox</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/03/22/dung-fungus-reveal-that-humans-not-climate-change-killed-australias-giant-beasts/#comment-14671</link>
		<dc:creator>amphiox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2012 18:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6607#comment-14671</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;It’s certainly true that Aboriginal cultures among others place a lot of emphasis on the need to conserve nature (with strict limits on hunting and so forth), but this imperative must have come from somewhere, and I like to imagine that once upon a 40,000-year-old campfire a conversation went something like: “So where have all the diprotodon gone?” “Oh, yeah. Whoops. Maybe we should have been more careful.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I should point out that even an aboriginal culture which already had a strong emphasis on conserving nature would not be immune to causing such an ecological catastrophe. Proper ecological management requires in depth knowledge of the specifics of the ecology, and every ecology is unique. For a culture that has newly arrived on a hithertoo unknown and virgin land, whose ecology is in some ways very different and vulnerable in different ways from what they had previously known, there is great danger for causing much damage simply from lack of knowledge. All the traditional knowledge they bring with them would have applied to the old ecology they came from, but may not apply to the new one. There is even danger that activities that actually help in the old ecology would prove disastrous in the new. And as it takes many generations to acquire such knowledge, it may have come too late to reverse the inadvertent damage done in the early phase of arrival.

When human migrations contribute to mass extinctions, it is often attributed to naive animals not having prior experience with human pressure and failing to adapt fast enough. But one must not forget that the arriving humans are also naive themselves to the new ecology they find themselves in, and thus may not successfully adapt fast enough to living sustainably in the new ecology, even if that had been their intent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It’s certainly true that Aboriginal cultures among others place a lot of emphasis on the need to conserve nature (with strict limits on hunting and so forth), but this imperative must have come from somewhere, and I like to imagine that once upon a 40,000-year-old campfire a conversation went something like: “So where have all the diprotodon gone?” “Oh, yeah. Whoops. Maybe we should have been more careful.”</p></blockquote>
<p>I should point out that even an aboriginal culture which already had a strong emphasis on conserving nature would not be immune to causing such an ecological catastrophe. Proper ecological management requires in depth knowledge of the specifics of the ecology, and every ecology is unique. For a culture that has newly arrived on a hithertoo unknown and virgin land, whose ecology is in some ways very different and vulnerable in different ways from what they had previously known, there is great danger for causing much damage simply from lack of knowledge. All the traditional knowledge they bring with them would have applied to the old ecology they came from, but may not apply to the new one. There is even danger that activities that actually help in the old ecology would prove disastrous in the new. And as it takes many generations to acquire such knowledge, it may have come too late to reverse the inadvertent damage done in the early phase of arrival.</p>
<p>When human migrations contribute to mass extinctions, it is often attributed to naive animals not having prior experience with human pressure and failing to adapt fast enough. But one must not forget that the arriving humans are also naive themselves to the new ecology they find themselves in, and thus may not successfully adapt fast enough to living sustainably in the new ecology, even if that had been their intent.</p>
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		<title>By: Suz</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/03/22/dung-fungus-reveal-that-humans-not-climate-change-killed-australias-giant-beasts/#comment-14670</link>
		<dc:creator>Suz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6607#comment-14670</guid>
		<description>Denial is becoming the most unappealing feature in the human race. We want so much to be righteous, but, unfortunately, we are only human. Thinking that our &#039;less than technologically advanced&#039; counterparts were any different than us with their self-centered perceptions is completely unrealistic.  It is a shame that for the vast majority of us, complete destruction preludes enlightenment.  An even greater shame is that with so much history written down, we still have to learn things the hard way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Denial is becoming the most unappealing feature in the human race. We want so much to be righteous, but, unfortunately, we are only human. Thinking that our &#8216;less than technologically advanced&#8217; counterparts were any different than us with their self-centered perceptions is completely unrealistic.  It is a shame that for the vast majority of us, complete destruction preludes enlightenment.  An even greater shame is that with so much history written down, we still have to learn things the hard way.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dodds</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/03/22/dung-fungus-reveal-that-humans-not-climate-change-killed-australias-giant-beasts/#comment-14669</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dodds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2012 06:37:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6607#comment-14669</guid>
		<description>Can we get some added information on the dating? We are blithly jumping from 100,000 years ago (lots of megafauna) to 40,000 years ago (some or last of megafauna &amp; some(?) people).
My understanding is that  from 110,0000 years ago to 12000 years ago we were in an  Earthly ice age (little or no ice in Australia except in the mountains!) when it was several  degrees colder. The only warm periods are the last 10,000 years and for about 5000 years about 130,000 years ago.  except for periodic very short term spikes in temperature which do not even show up in the Antarctic ice cores due to the longer periods between samplings.
Just how convincing is the sampling of the dung? Was it done every 300-500 years like the Antarctic ice cores OR was it done every 10 years like the GISP northern Hemisphere ice cores?
 ALSO was it the humans or the Fires or both(?) that wiped out the big animals or was it a reduction in their available food source caused by the reduced temperature/ice age/fires? I find it hard to believe that a tiny little(?) human population could wipe out all those big animals on the entire continent/island (similar to USA~3K x 1.5K miles) without some help from a reduction in food plants caused by  the ongoing ice age from 115,000 years ago to 12,000 years ago?
Next question Were there humans in Tasmania and when?  Does the separation of Tasmania by the water/ocean from  the rest of Australia contribute to  differences in the timing of the dying out of the mega fauna (note that the mega fauna in Tasmania IS different from the megafauna on the rest of Australia., because I suspect that it probably took man (the aborigines) some time to expand from Africa, to Northern Australia/Queensland) and on  to Tasmania 1500 miles to the south where it was already colder.  Is there a lake core sample in Tasmania that can confirm the same timing &quot;that man was the cause, and climate change was not?  Aside from the bias in the reporting! (commented on in the BLOG on The Conversation website maintained by Australian scientists)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can we get some added information on the dating? We are blithly jumping from 100,000 years ago (lots of megafauna) to 40,000 years ago (some or last of megafauna &amp; some(?) people).<br />
My understanding is that  from 110,0000 years ago to 12000 years ago we were in an  Earthly ice age (little or no ice in Australia except in the mountains!) when it was several  degrees colder. The only warm periods are the last 10,000 years and for about 5000 years about 130,000 years ago.  except for periodic very short term spikes in temperature which do not even show up in the Antarctic ice cores due to the longer periods between samplings.<br />
Just how convincing is the sampling of the dung? Was it done every 300-500 years like the Antarctic ice cores OR was it done every 10 years like the GISP northern Hemisphere ice cores?<br />
 ALSO was it the humans or the Fires or both(?) that wiped out the big animals or was it a reduction in their available food source caused by the reduced temperature/ice age/fires? I find it hard to believe that a tiny little(?) human population could wipe out all those big animals on the entire continent/island (similar to USA~3K x 1.5K miles) without some help from a reduction in food plants caused by  the ongoing ice age from 115,000 years ago to 12,000 years ago?<br />
Next question Were there humans in Tasmania and when?  Does the separation of Tasmania by the water/ocean from  the rest of Australia contribute to  differences in the timing of the dying out of the mega fauna (note that the mega fauna in Tasmania IS different from the megafauna on the rest of Australia., because I suspect that it probably took man (the aborigines) some time to expand from Africa, to Northern Australia/Queensland) and on  to Tasmania 1500 miles to the south where it was already colder.  Is there a lake core sample in Tasmania that can confirm the same timing &#8220;that man was the cause, and climate change was not?  Aside from the bias in the reporting! (commented on in the BLOG on The Conversation website maintained by Australian scientists)</p>
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		<title>By: meh</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/03/22/dung-fungus-reveal-that-humans-not-climate-change-killed-australias-giant-beasts/#comment-14668</link>
		<dc:creator>meh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2012 05:16:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6607#comment-14668</guid>
		<description>&quot;Dung fungus&quot; - great band name!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Dung fungus&#8221; &#8211; great band name!</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian Morgan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/03/22/dung-fungus-reveal-that-humans-not-climate-change-killed-australias-giant-beasts/#comment-14667</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2012 05:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6607#comment-14667</guid>
		<description>Following Walter&#039;s comment, I&#039;ll admit to a bias of my own, not in interpreting the science (which I&#039;m happy to accept whichever way it falls), but in what I think makes the most satisfying story: what I would &lt;i&gt;like&lt;/i&gt; to be true. It&#039;s certainly true that Aboriginal cultures among others place a lot of emphasis on the need to conserve nature (with strict limits on hunting and so forth), but this imperative must have come from somewhere, and I like to imagine that once upon a 40,000-year-old campfire a conversation went something like: &quot;So where have all the diprotodon gone?&quot; &quot;Oh, yeah. Whoops. Maybe we should have been more careful.&quot;

The reason I find this narrative satisfying is because I firmly believe that the single most noble thing you can say about any culture is that it has learned from its mistakes. For that reason, I can&#039;t imagine a viewpoint that respects Aboriginal culture more. I mean, look at us: we&#039;re having trouble with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Following Walter&#8217;s comment, I&#8217;ll admit to a bias of my own, not in interpreting the science (which I&#8217;m happy to accept whichever way it falls), but in what I think makes the most satisfying story: what I would <i>like</i> to be true. It&#8217;s certainly true that Aboriginal cultures among others place a lot of emphasis on the need to conserve nature (with strict limits on hunting and so forth), but this imperative must have come from somewhere, and I like to imagine that once upon a 40,000-year-old campfire a conversation went something like: &#8220;So where have all the diprotodon gone?&#8221; &#8220;Oh, yeah. Whoops. Maybe we should have been more careful.&#8221;</p>
<p>The reason I find this narrative satisfying is because I firmly believe that the single most noble thing you can say about any culture is that it has learned from its mistakes. For that reason, I can&#8217;t imagine a viewpoint that respects Aboriginal culture more. I mean, look at us: we&#8217;re having trouble with that.</p>
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		<title>By: Walter S. Andriuzzi</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/03/22/dung-fungus-reveal-that-humans-not-climate-change-killed-australias-giant-beasts/#comment-14666</link>
		<dc:creator>Walter S. Andriuzzi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:43:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6607#comment-14666</guid>
		<description>I thought the debate was already quite settled - of course we&#039;ll never know for &quot;certain&quot;, but the evidence gathered so far is pretty convincing if you ask me. Maybe I&#039;m being mean-minded, but I&#039;d say that some people continue to oppose the idea that humans were a main reason behind the extinction of megafaunal species all over the world because they still cling to the romantic idea that our ancestors lived in harmony with nature, as if they were Sindarin Elves / Na&#039;vi / Children of the Forest (though presumably less elvish, less blue and taller respectively)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought the debate was already quite settled &#8211; of course we&#8217;ll never know for &#8220;certain&#8221;, but the evidence gathered so far is pretty convincing if you ask me. Maybe I&#8217;m being mean-minded, but I&#8217;d say that some people continue to oppose the idea that humans were a main reason behind the extinction of megafaunal species all over the world because they still cling to the romantic idea that our ancestors lived in harmony with nature, as if they were Sindarin Elves / Na&#8217;vi / Children of the Forest (though presumably less elvish, less blue and taller respectively)</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony David</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/03/22/dung-fungus-reveal-that-humans-not-climate-change-killed-australias-giant-beasts/#comment-14665</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/?p=6607#comment-14665</guid>
		<description>This is another excellent piece in the puzzle that is the Austrlaina megafauna extinction debate.
Minor quibbles. The cores of the lake sediment would have been mud, not rock. In fact, the supporting material refers to peat in the cores used for radiocarbon age dating. The doi article link does not work, though it does match that used in the original Science article. I assume it will be created soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is another excellent piece in the puzzle that is the Austrlaina megafauna extinction debate.<br />
Minor quibbles. The cores of the lake sediment would have been mud, not rock. In fact, the supporting material refers to peat in the cores used for radiocarbon age dating. The doi article link does not work, though it does match that used in the original Science article. I assume it will be created soon.</p>
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