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	<title>Comments on: Standing on the Shoulders of Giants: Beyond the Science v. Religion Debate, Part VI</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/realitybase/2008/02/10/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-beyond-the-science-v-religion-debate-part-vi/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/realitybase/2008/02/10/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-beyond-the-science-v-religion-debate-part-vi/</link>
	<description>A blog about science, politics, and how to let each help the other without compromising them both.</description>
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		<dc:creator>Kristian Sansbury</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/realitybase/2009/02/10/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-beyond-the-science-v-religion-debate-part-vi/#comment-127106</guid>
		<description>Hiya, just considered i would tell you something.. This is twice these days i</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hiya, just considered i would tell you something.. This is twice these days i</p>
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		<title>By: Leoma Meteer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/realitybase/2008/02/10/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-beyond-the-science-v-religion-debate-part-vi/comment-page-1/#comment-126819</link>
		<dc:creator>Leoma Meteer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/realitybase/2009/02/10/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-beyond-the-science-v-religion-debate-part-vi/#comment-126819</guid>
		<description>Good day, simply thought i would relay to you something.. This is 2 times today i</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good day, simply thought i would relay to you something.. This is 2 times today i</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Witkop</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/realitybase/2008/02/10/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-beyond-the-science-v-religion-debate-part-vi/comment-page-1/#comment-126797</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Witkop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/realitybase/2009/02/10/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-beyond-the-science-v-religion-debate-part-vi/#comment-126797</guid>
		<description>Your post certainly was 1 of the greatest things of my weekend. I had been on Msn looking for some thing entirely unrelated while the title caught my attention. I</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your post certainly was 1 of the greatest things of my weekend. I had been on Msn looking for some thing entirely unrelated while the title caught my attention. I</p>
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		<title>By: Office 2007 Professional</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/realitybase/2008/02/10/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-beyond-the-science-v-religion-debate-part-vi/comment-page-1/#comment-100938</link>
		<dc:creator>Office 2007 Professional</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 16:32:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/realitybase/2009/02/10/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-beyond-the-science-v-religion-debate-part-vi/#comment-100938</guid>
		<description>The best software online shop:   http://www.software-hotbuy.com/
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best software online shop:   <a href="http://www.software-hotbuy.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.software-hotbuy.com/</a><br />
  <a href="http://www.software-hotbuy.com/" rel="nofollow">Microsoft Office 2007</a>,only $110!  <a href="http://www.software-hotbuy.com/" rel="nofollow">Windows 7</a> only $139!  No Tax and Free Shipping!<br />
  <a href="http://www.software-hotbuy.com/" rel="nofollow">Office 2007 Professional</a><br />
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  <a href="http://www.software-hotbuy.com/adobe-flash-pro-cs4-p-22.html" rel="nofollow">Flash CS4</a><br />
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  <a href="http://www.software-hotbuy.com/adobe-acrobat-c-6.html" rel="nofollow">Acrobat 9</a><br />
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  <a href="http://www.software-hotbuy.com/windows-7-c-10.html" rel="nofollow">Windows 7 Professional</a><br />
  <a href="http://www.software-hotbuy.com/windows-7-c-10.html" rel="nofollow">Windows 7 Ultimate</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: brand handbags</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/realitybase/2008/02/10/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-beyond-the-science-v-religion-debate-part-vi/comment-page-1/#comment-42439</link>
		<dc:creator>brand handbags</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/realitybase/2009/02/10/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-beyond-the-science-v-religion-debate-part-vi/#comment-42439</guid>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.christianlouboutincheap.org/" rel="nofollow">Christian Louboutin</a><br /><a href="http://www.christianlouboutincheap.org/Christian-Louboutin-Evening-Shoes/" rel="nofollow">Christian Louboutin Evening Shoes on sale</a><br /><a href="http://www.christianlouboutincheap.org/Yves-Saint-Laurent-Sandals/" rel="nofollow">Yves Saint Laurent Sandalson sale</a><br /><a href="http://www.christianlouboutincheap.org/YSL-Platform-Pumps&amp;Slingbacks/" rel="nofollow">YSL Platform Pumps&amp;Slingbacks on sale</a><br /><a href="http://www.christianlouboutincheap.org/Christian-Louboutin-Fashion-Boots/" rel="nofollow">cheap Christian Louboutin Fashion Boots</a><br /><a href="http://replicahandbagsbuy.com" rel="nofollow">brand handbags</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mike Gottschalk</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/realitybase/2008/02/10/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-beyond-the-science-v-religion-debate-part-vi/comment-page-1/#comment-4718</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Gottschalk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:52:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/realitybase/2009/02/10/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-beyond-the-science-v-religion-debate-part-vi/#comment-4718</guid>
		<description>@ Robert.  Your point about middle America and the polarized elements has perplexed me for awhile.  I don&#039;t think the polarized elements enjoy  truth so much as they enjoy feeling the &quot;largeness&quot; engendered from fighting a war: an engrandizing of &quot;us&quot; against &quot;them&quot;. Perhaps they derive a feeling of personal solidity by having a &quot;them&quot; to stand up to.  They need adult sized and battle grade play pens.

As to middle America.  It&#039;s as if we&#039;ve become amphibious and keep adjusting ourselves to the temperature.  I wonder if it has to do with confusion over what is really real?  Are we machines?  super animals?   blind results of inevitable forces?  In light of these choices, what else can I aspire to, other than being consumer?  In fact, if you listen to the message- one that in some way asserts that God is out to make you a &quot;winner&quot;-   put forth by the churches with the most popularity,  it pretty much substantiates  our current brand of &quot;consumerism&quot;.  In our culture,  we no longer forge meaning as individual persons in a life that in our bones, feels worth while; we now buy our identities off the rack;  identities feverishly invented by marketing departments in the form of brands and sold to us at prices so cheap that we can throw them away to buy new ones.

In the effort to correct our abuses of subjectivity by marginalizing it to a level that we could call violent,  our ability to be persons of meaning is as flaccid as a popped balloon.  (I could go &quot;Jersey&quot; with Adam Frank here and involve him in this analogy, but I&#039;ll refrain....)  Yet, doesn&#039;t our unique capacity to be subjective  form the basis to be rich unique individuals?   People summed only as &quot;results&quot; and grouped by buying patterns don&#039;t have the power that people summed as true subjects have.  Perhaps to be a little more colorful in pushing this point,  I might argue  that American culture differs Communist culture only at a level of consumer goods.  Other wise, we share in the same resulting stupor. 

This doesn&#039;t answer your question yet, but I think it adds illumination to the problem you&#039;re spotting in your question.  Which in the past, really wouldn&#039;t be a problem- at least in a true democracy: to each his own.  Today, I would argue that the  consuming of goods as a reflexive replacement for a lost  subjective experience is fueling the demise of our planet.

The &#039;World is Flat&#039; author,  (I&#039;m blanking his name- damn)  sees our solution to our pending demise in making green technology, &quot;China Cheap&quot;.  I guess I&#039;m wondering instead,  how do we become people who value  something we might call, &quot;elegant living&quot; as a matter of course?   Your thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Robert.  Your point about middle America and the polarized elements has perplexed me for awhile.  I don&#8217;t think the polarized elements enjoy  truth so much as they enjoy feeling the &#8220;largeness&#8221; engendered from fighting a war: an engrandizing of &#8220;us&#8221; against &#8220;them&#8221;. Perhaps they derive a feeling of personal solidity by having a &#8220;them&#8221; to stand up to.  They need adult sized and battle grade play pens.</p>
<p>As to middle America.  It&#8217;s as if we&#8217;ve become amphibious and keep adjusting ourselves to the temperature.  I wonder if it has to do with confusion over what is really real?  Are we machines?  super animals?   blind results of inevitable forces?  In light of these choices, what else can I aspire to, other than being consumer?  In fact, if you listen to the message- one that in some way asserts that God is out to make you a &#8220;winner&#8221;-   put forth by the churches with the most popularity,  it pretty much substantiates  our current brand of &#8220;consumerism&#8221;.  In our culture,  we no longer forge meaning as individual persons in a life that in our bones, feels worth while; we now buy our identities off the rack;  identities feverishly invented by marketing departments in the form of brands and sold to us at prices so cheap that we can throw them away to buy new ones.</p>
<p>In the effort to correct our abuses of subjectivity by marginalizing it to a level that we could call violent,  our ability to be persons of meaning is as flaccid as a popped balloon.  (I could go &#8220;Jersey&#8221; with Adam Frank here and involve him in this analogy, but I&#8217;ll refrain&#8230;.)  Yet, doesn&#8217;t our unique capacity to be subjective  form the basis to be rich unique individuals?   People summed only as &#8220;results&#8221; and grouped by buying patterns don&#8217;t have the power that people summed as true subjects have.  Perhaps to be a little more colorful in pushing this point,  I might argue  that American culture differs Communist culture only at a level of consumer goods.  Other wise, we share in the same resulting stupor. </p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t answer your question yet, but I think it adds illumination to the problem you&#8217;re spotting in your question.  Which in the past, really wouldn&#8217;t be a problem- at least in a true democracy: to each his own.  Today, I would argue that the  consuming of goods as a reflexive replacement for a lost  subjective experience is fueling the demise of our planet.</p>
<p>The &#8216;World is Flat&#8217; author,  (I&#8217;m blanking his name- damn)  sees our solution to our pending demise in making green technology, &#8220;China Cheap&#8221;.  I guess I&#8217;m wondering instead,  how do we become people who value  something we might call, &#8220;elegant living&#8221; as a matter of course?   Your thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Johnson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/realitybase/2008/02/10/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-beyond-the-science-v-religion-debate-part-vi/comment-page-1/#comment-4708</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/realitybase/2009/02/10/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants-beyond-the-science-v-religion-debate-part-vi/#comment-4708</guid>
		<description>@David. I don&#039;t think it&#039;s the extremism. There have always been extremists. It&#039;s a matter of how many there are and who is listening. The amount of extremists/ism might seem to be rising but it isn&#039;t. In Fiorina&#039;s &quot;The myth of a Polarized America&quot; ( http://www.amazon.com/Culture-Polarized-America-Questions-Politics/dp/032127640X ) you can see a decent report that it&#039;s not America that is polarized, but the political and cultural elites. 

Then @ everyone else: 

The question arises from Prof. Frank&#039;s view and answers that debating with the ID/Creationists and (implied) the Dawkins Gang (because they are just as extreme, entrenched and uwilling to debate, like it or not) is something to simply be bypassed. 

If we bypass the extremists then we can get down to the nitty gritty so to speak, but, what if no one (who matters) is listening because middle America (as one example) is concerned about every day life and the polarized elements are just having too good a time to disengag)? What then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@David. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s the extremism. There have always been extremists. It&#8217;s a matter of how many there are and who is listening. The amount of extremists/ism might seem to be rising but it isn&#8217;t. In Fiorina&#8217;s &#8220;The myth of a Polarized America&#8221; ( <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Culture-Polarized-America-Questions-Politics/dp/032127640X" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Culture-Polarized-America-Questions-Politics/dp/032127640X</a> ) you can see a decent report that it&#8217;s not America that is polarized, but the political and cultural elites. </p>
<p>Then @ everyone else: </p>
<p>The question arises from Prof. Frank&#8217;s view and answers that debating with the ID/Creationists and (implied) the Dawkins Gang (because they are just as extreme, entrenched and uwilling to debate, like it or not) is something to simply be bypassed. </p>
<p>If we bypass the extremists then we can get down to the nitty gritty so to speak, but, what if no one (who matters) is listening because middle America (as one example) is concerned about every day life and the polarized elements are just having too good a time to disengag)? What then?</p>
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