This week, Newsweek joins the rising tide of forums holding the “God Challenge”: pit a religious figure (generally of the Christian persuasion) against a hardcore atheist, and let them battle it out over the existence of God. This week’s contestants are mega-preacher Rick Warren, of California’s Saddleback Church, and Sam Harris, philosopher and author of The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation, with editor Jon Meacham acting as referee.
The conversation, for the most part, sticks to the general formula: Is there a God, what evidence do we have either way, should the Bible be interpreted literally, does prayer really “work.” No surprise, the points and counterpoints meet with the same language barrier that dominates nearly all of these attempts to “translate” religion into rational terms, and vice versa.
Harris, for his part, is no stranger to debates like these, and holds his own through questions about the existence of secular morality and the ability to be spiritual without believing a doctrine. He does, however, fall into the paternalistic “I know better than you” trap that can’t help but alienate the billions of humans who do believe in God. Telling people they’re stupider than you is simply never a winning strategy.
Meanwhile, Warren makes a few interesting points about personal responsibility and divine justice. But he sets himself up as easy prey with exchanges like the following:
WARREN: One of the great evidences of God is answered prayer. I have a friend, a Canadian friend, who has an immigration issue. He’s an intern at this church, and so I said, “God, I need you to help me with this,” as I went out for my evening walk. As I was walking I met a woman. She said, “I’m an immigration attorney; I’d be happy to take this case.” Now, if that happened once in my life I’d say, “That is a coincidence.” If it happened tens of thousands of times, that is not a coincidence.
There must have been times in your ministry when you’ve prayed for someone to be delivered from disease who is not—say, a little girl with cancer.
WARREN: Oh, absolutely.
So, parse that. God gave you an immigration attorney, but God killed a little girl.
WARREN: Well, I do believe in the goodness of God, and I do believe that he knows better than I do. God sometimes says yes, God sometimes says no and God sometimes says wait. I’ve had to learn the difference between no and not yet. The issue here really does come down to surrender. A lot of atheists hide behind rationalism; when you start probing, you find their reactions are quite emotional. In fact, I’ve never met an atheist who wasn’t angry.
Which is essentially saying that sometimes you can control fate by “praying” to God, and sometimes you can’t, but the act of surrendering control should only happen once you realize all those fervent prayers aren’t being answered. That humans foolishly try to control nearly every aspect of life is a germane point—just look at the headlines to see how utterly out of control things are, despite our best efforts otherwise. But rather than explore this human tendency, and how religion alleviates/causes it, Warren heads straight for the defend-your-position-by-attacking-your-opponent tactic so reminiscent of modern political campaigns. Which, as we’ve seen, aren’t exactly the paths to agreement and rational discourse.
October 1st, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Normally, I’m a patient, gentle-hearted atheist. However, some days, after reading the news of the atrocities of some theocratic regime and the efforts of those who want to impose similar religious beliefs on others in the States, an annoying little person will come up and badger me about the glory of their little religion, the truth of creationism, the value of faith over reason, or some other anti-Rationalist drivel. Usually I can just smile and politely state the rationalist position because I know this person is deluded rather than uninformed, but sometimes, yeah, I’m angry that such people are busy tearing down the civilization that rational people are creating.
October 1st, 2008 at 9:19 pm
I must say I agree with Chucko. As a recovering christian in the pentecostal movement, I am so glad that I can now rationally look at what is true and false. My first thoughts that “God” is not a god at all came when one of our parishioners was killed in a car accident while pulling into the church parking lot. It was preached in our Sunday school class that the only reason she died was because we didn’t pray hard enough. We were told we should pray until she was revived, and because we didn’t pray hard enough, or earnestly enough, she died. In other words, her blood was on our hands. Well, she was dead. Hit by an 18 wheeler, there was nothing I, the doctors, or this so called “God” in the sky could do about it. It only took me about 8 more years of similar experiences to realize the insanity of this. Glad I finally “saw the light”.
Neecie
October 1st, 2008 at 10:38 pm
I’m a little frustrated by the recent batch of god vs atheism posts. For a few reasons.
1. I’m pretty sure that discover is a science magazine. These debates seem primarily based on opinion for both parties involved.
2. These debates generally showcase conservative and close-minded church leaders and imply that they represent all religious people.
I’m not saying that religions shouldn’t be questioned, but the recent posts seem quite biased. If you’re going to continue this trend of theological charged posts, please include other, more rational viewpoints.
Here’s a good example from HH Dalai Lama, “If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change. In my view, science and Buddhism share a search for the truth and for understanding reality.” http://www.dalailama.com/news.5.htm
October 2nd, 2008 at 4:00 am
Ian, these aren’t scientific debates, but philosophical ones. The philosophy of science is, I think, a valid topic for a science magazine, and nothing highlights it better than contrasting the scientific and religious approaches.
Sure there are religious viewpoints out there that accomodate science (Ba’Hai is another example). But a debate between two people who largely agree is less interesting, I think. Sam Harris is not exactly your typical atheist either. But I agree, it would be interesting to explore the viewpoints of people who manage to be both religious and pro-science. We would see that their religion is radically different from the religion of the evangelists.
October 2nd, 2008 at 4:16 am
Sad to see there are some here who base their “god” on their own opinion of what he should do….according to their will not “His”. If you are in the position of believing God didnt live up to your standard…then maybe you need to review whether you actually had a relationship with Him..rather than just living a religious life. I personally would be wary of anyone who preaches the “it didnt happen cos you didnt have enough faith Kenneth Copeland crap”…but I also know that if things dont go my way…it doesnt lesson the existance or perfection of God – or His reality and provision though the sacrifice of His Son for my sin.
Where was God when my own child died…??? In exactly the same place as He was when His Son was being tortured and murdered for me and you. God is God, Jesus is our only Hope and Saviour, sin is sin – and we will never understand all things..until we are with Him – and we will never see Him – unless our sin is dealt with by the precious blood of Jesus.
Amazing isnt it…it still goes on….satan still deceives people into creating their own image of god….ummmm HE made the rules folks….we arent the ones who dictate the terms..His terms or ours…Heaven or Hell…your choice
October 2nd, 2008 at 10:56 am
Wow, it never fails to amaze me when I see people of faith defending their ability to trust something that does not exist. There is no proof of the existence of a god, any god, let alone one special one. If there were proof there would be precious few atheist, and probably zero debate about it. The fact that there are both atheists and debates about the existence of any god is evidence enough that sane individuals should doubt the existence of a god.
We were not born in sin. Without the christian bible, who would know of such? God is not visiting regularly to remind us, we are given only the word of men that a god exists, only the word of men as to what this god wants us to do. More often than not, that word is to the benefit of those speaking the words than to mankind.
I’m tired, TIRED, of christians talking about prayer, saying that it is their god’s will to answer or not, yet they still pray to have things go their way knowing that their god will do as he pleases, with or without their prayer. So who is prayer for? Must be for those that desire divine intervention on their behalf. They claim their god is all knowing, but refuse to understand that he knows what they need by praying for his intervention on their behalf. Either he knows all or he doesn’t! Why does he need reminding? That doesn’t sound like an all knowing entity to me.
desertrose asks if I think god didn’t live up to my expectations? His/her god didn’t live up to anyone’s expectations. It’s kind of cute that his/her religion also includes an all encompassing get out clause… if you don’t believe like we do, it must be satan running your life. It can’t possibly be that I just don’t believe in the same fairy tales? There is no room for disbelief or non-belief. Everyone must believe as s/he does or they go to hell. What kind of god would do that? How vain is that? Either you dance and worship the word of men written about me, or I condemn you to everlasting torture? Wow, that’s some loving god right there. Live your life in constant guilt and shame or I will condemn you to eternity feeling even worse. Screw that! If there is a loving compassionate god, s/he would want me to live, celebrate, enjoy this one life given to me. I condemn all gods who would have me do otherwise.
October 2nd, 2008 at 2:13 pm
desertrose:
According to your own beliefs, God made sure that your child died, and in so doing, gave that child exactly what it deserved.
I’m an atheist. I don’t think your child deserved to die.
Which of us is more enlightened?
October 2nd, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Pierre,
God doesn’t kill people. Yes, He is in control of all things and knows all things, but that doesn’t mean it was his will that anyone dies. Death is a consequence of sin. Because we have a sinful nature and have sinned, we suffer the consequences. A child certainly did not bring on his/her own death by sinning. Rather sin has caused the world to deteriorate in a more general sense and that child’s death is an unfortunate consequence. Even the earth shows these symptoms. Sin is so destructive that its consequences affect everyone, no matter how good you are. God’s ultimate plan is to defeat sin, but the reason He doesn’t just defeat it right now is because He must leave us a choice to either choose His solution or not. Once we have decided to choose Him, then we are on His side when sin is defeated by choice. We aren’t God’s puppets, so that is why we must be given the free will to choose Him or not, first, before He can eliminate sin. You could say none of us deserve to live because we all sin and cannot be in relationship with a perfect being without tainting that being. However, God has met his terms of justice with them so that we can be forgiven and be seen in His eyes as clean, and will be made perfect by Him at the time He knows everyone has made their choice.
October 3rd, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Dear Jim,
It’s not possible to be in control of everything and yet not in control of death at the same time. You say your god’s ultimate plan is to defeat sin? His book says that sin came from knowledge. Does this mean that he must “defeat” knowledge first? I can’t speak for anyone else, but if being “saved” by someone else’s invisible friend means being an idiot, I think I will pass.
As far as the remark in the article about Sam Harris, it’s true that being paternal is not the best persuasive method. I would point out that it’s probably very difficult for him not to behave that way. Imagine trying to convince a 40 year old man that there is no such thing as the tooth fairy. Imagine devoting your life to eradicating the belief in the tooth fairy among adults. Wouldn’t you feel like you were talking to children; wouldn’t you get “paternal”? I would.
October 17th, 2008 at 1:26 am
Immagine there are 27 flavors of Snow Cones, YOU HAVE NEVER HAD A SNOW CONE, SEEN ONE, HEARD OF ONE, NOTHING………….
and I told you to eat a specific one that I had been eating now for many years. It was the best thing you have ever tasted!
What if I told you that this spacific snow cone flavor that we can call “Superman” is the best tasting snow cone that is
avaliable? What if I told you that by eating this snow cone it will make your life better, it will make you feel better about
yourself, and it will also give you etearnal life? You would probably think im crazy right? Remeber…… YOU have never had
a snow cone before………………………………………………………………………………………………
you have never even heard of them. So now Im trying to get you to try this “Superman” its the best thing! “Superman” is the bomb
And after tasting “Superman” your taste buds were exploding with flavor. You were experiecing
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Immagine now that I ask you………IS THAT YOUR FAVORITE SNOW CONE?
Wo wo wo Hold on one second…..stop for a second and think about that last question….Is that your favorite snow cone?
Remember, “Superman” was the first snow cone you have ever tasted, hell you had never even heard of snow cones before I told you
about “Superman”. Really think about it………….there are still 26 other snow cones to try RIGHT? Heres where things get
interesting….what if I told you that the other 26 snow cones will equal a firy pit of hell for you???????????? What if i said
that they are poisoned and I had personally witnessed thousands of people try any of the other 26 flavors and there lives were
ruined almost immediately. I am sure by this point you can see where Im going with this…..you would most likley think I had
fell off the deep end…..Immagine me saying theese things to you standing there by myself, and this was the first time you had
ever heard such outlandish things being said to you.
How is this different than any Religion, Any person has grown up in? I will tell you how………Immagine now that there are
Millions of people standing behind me……..Immagine that all of those people are telling you the same things I am….Immagine
that we all are telling you those same outlandish, unbelievable, and down right rediculous stories about the other 26 snow cones.
You see, with Millions of people standing behind me………all testifying the same thing……I know what you would do….
you would do the same damm thing so many other people accross this world have done including myself and almost everyone I know…
….you would continue to eat “Superman”. You would have it as often as you could….hell its suppost to give you etarnal life.
You would eat it as often as you could, while at the same time avoiding the other 26 snow cones like they were the black plague.
If that is not Religion? I don’t know what is.
Friends, please try and understand what I am saying to you. I write today because I love people, I do not love there actions
and I feel things must change. Information that is avaliable, and being saught after, is the only thing that can save us….
I can provide first hand information that is from my heart, but I cannot provide the will for others to learn it. However, knowing
the information is there, avaliable to make a difference in someones life, the way that it has made a difference in mine, is
the liest I can do…….one human to another.
January 12th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
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February 26th, 2009 at 10:17 am
if you want, you can be atheist,thats your choise,choise of life without reason and that’”s sad (dont tell that you living mianingfull life,no its not,because after death its amen by atheist) i chose faith at least it gives me meaning to being.it,s hard to find something worse then life without reason,should be hard to be for inteligent creature
June 23rd, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Bash religion section
=====================
As an ex-Baha’i (currently buddhist/integralist), I would caution that the bahai idea of “the harmony of science and religion” has limited depth – it is mostly based on 100+ year old stuff. Baha’i scripture (universalized sufi neoplatonism), even including recent excellent retranslations by western scholars (Keven Brown, and co.) badly flubs dealing with evolutionary theory and several other critical science-mysticism issues.
Please note that Baha’i also is very confused about the related topic of separation of church-state, and the Baha’i world organization has recently expelled non-conforming/disident theologians, academics and activists from its membership that have questioned traditional Baha’i positions.
Better alternatives than Baha’i:
Please read Julian Walker’s commentary about integral theory on Gaia.com
http://julianwalkeryoga.gaia.com/blog/2009/1/sam_harris_facts_values_and_a_place_for_the_profound
Or for a really wild ride into the new age world of integral theory, google “ken wilber kosmos shambhala”.
http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/books/kosmos/
(the beginning summary section of “Excerpt D” is the best intro material.)
Bash atheism section
====================
For the dear atheists: arguing against premodern religion is easy, it is full of non-rational, superstitious bunk. Arguing against the position on mysticism and spirituality taken by “consciousness studies” and integral theory (Esalen, Aurobindo, Jean Gebser, Care Graves) is a different situation. Clearly many human beings have a deep need, wired into the human brain by evolution, to construct “meaning” in ways that support compassion and altruism. This has been present since long before “religion” formally existed.
Also, Habermas critiqued the “colonization of lifeworld by systems”.
Those that think that “progress” is limited to the old fight between rationalism and superstition (corrupt religion) are not keeping up with developments in postmodern/integral culture.
It is a lot harder to be arrogantly dismissive about spiritually than to understand it in an unprejudiced manner.
(watch your karma!)
July 19th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
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