Battlestar Galactica: Watched The Finale? Still Got Questions? We've Got Answers!

By Stephen Cass | March 20, 2009 11:11 pm

Screenshot from Battlestar GalacticaEarlier this week in New York, Battlestar Galactica‘s co-creators David Eick and Ron Moore, along with cast members Mary McDonnell (President Roslin) and Edward James Olmos (Admiral Adama), sat down with the press for a Q&A session following a screening of the last episode. We were just as brimming with questions as you are about the finale, and here are some of the answers we got. Needless to say, what follows below the jump contains MASSIVE SPOILERS if you haven’t already seen tonight’s show, so don’t say you weren’t warned!

What exactly was Kara, and were people chasing down a rabbit hole when they assumed her father was Daniel, the missing 8th model cylon?

Ron Moore: Daniel is definitely a rabbit hole. It was an unintentional rabbit hole, to be honest. I was kind of surprised when I started picking up [that] speculation online.

For those of you who don’t know, there was a deep part of the cylon backstory that had to do with one of the cylons that was created by the final five [called Daniel. Daniel] was later sort of aborted by Cavill… it was always intended just to be sort of an interesting bit of backstory about Cavill and his jealously. A Cain and Abel sort of allegory. Then people really started grabbing on to it and seizing on it as some major part of the mythology. In couple of interviews and in the last podcast I tried to go out of my way to say “look, don’t spend too much time and energy on this particular theory,” because it was never intended to be that major a piece of the mythology.

David Eick: It’s like Boxey in that way!

Moore: Kara is what you want her to be. It’s easy to put the label on her of “angel” or “messenger of God” or something like that. Kara Thrace died and was resurrected and came back and took the people to their final end. That was her role, her destiny in the show… We debated back and forth in the writers’ room about giving it more clarity and saying definitively what she is. We decided that the more you try to put a name on it, the less interesting it became, and we just decided this was the most interesting way for her to go out, with her just disappearing and [leave people wondering exactly what she was].

We see Galactica jump away from the Colony. Are we to assume there are a lot of pissed off Cavills out there still, or were they destroyed?

Moore: The final [cut] came out a little less clear on that than I intended…. It was scripted and the idea was that when Racetrack hits the nukes—the nukes come in and smack into the colony—it takes the colony out of the stream that was swirling around the singularity and [the colony] fell in and was destroyed. I think as we went through the [editing process], when we kept cutting frames and doing this and that, one of the things that became less apparent was that the colony was doomed. The intention was that everyone who was aboard the colony would perish.

At what point did you decide to make it Earth-of-the-past that we were going to wind up on, and what was your reason for that?

Moore: We decided that a couple of years ago. I don’t think we ever really had a version of the show where we [were] in the future or in the present, those didn’t seem as interesting. In the early [development of the show], we would talk about the fact that we would see a lot of contemporary things in the show from language to wardrobe to all kinds of production design details. That only made sense to us in terms of a lot of things that we see in the show and we feel are taken from our contemporary world are actually theirs to begin with. [They] somehow spread down through eons and came to us through the collective unconsciousness. Or, more directly, [as when] Lee said we would give them the better part of ourselves.

Eick: There was a time when we were talking about “they land, and its Pterodactyls and Tyrannosaurus Rex.” But the idea that they were part of the genus of humankind seemed like the right—and more affordable!—way to do that.

Moore: We also had this image of Six walking through Times Square that we came up with long ago.

Who attacked the original Earth?

Moore: The backstory of the original Earth was supposed to be that the 13th tribe of cylons came to that world, started over and essentially destroyed themselves. There was some internecine warfare that occurred among the cylons themselves, which was another repetition in the cycle of “all of this has happened before and all will happen again.” Even they, who were the rebels that split off, [had] enough of humanity in them as cylons that they eventually destroyed themselves.

Why did Cavill decide to kill himself?

Moore: Cavill killing himself actually came from Dean Stockwell [the actor who played Cavill]. As scripted in that final climatic CIC battle, Tigh was going to grab Cavill and fling him over the edge of the upper level and he was going to fall to his death. Dean called me and said “y’know, I just really think that, in that moment, Cavill would realize the jig is up and it’s all hopeless, and he should just put a gun in his mouth and shoot himself.” And I said: “…Okay!”

For the actors, what was the last scene that you filmed and what was the mood like on the set?

Mary McDonnell: My last scene was Laura Roslin’s last moment in the Raptor. That was about 3:45 am on a very small set. I think I was one of the first people to wrap—she died and we all hugged, and my son and I went to the airport and went back to LA… It happened quickly, it was set to happen a week later and the schedule was changed, so suddenly it was over, it was really interesting, very much like the show for me.

Edward James Olmos: My last day was when I was on the mountainside and it was the last moment that I was on camera. It was quite an experience all the way around, that moment in time. I think everybody had a real easy time [acting] with the emotions that we had at the very end, it’s pretty honest all the way around. The last time that I saw Starbuck and Lee was the last scene where I saw them [in the show]. Pretty intense.

McDonnell: But we’re here, and we’re alive! I wore bright blue so you would know I was alive.

With the use of “All Along The Watchtower,” are you trying to get at some notion that there is some universal consciousness that goes back as far as the human/cylon races’ arrival?

Moore: The notion is sort of how you posited it. The music, the lyrics, the composition, is divine, eternal, it’s something that lives in the collective unconsciousness of everyone in the show and all of us today. It’s a musical theme that repeats itself and crops up in unexpected places. Different people hear it and pluck it out of the ether and write songs. It’s a connection of the divine and the mortal. Music is something that people literally catch out of the air and can’t really define exactly how they composed it. [So] here is a song that transcends many eons and many different people and cultures and the stars, and was ultimately reinvented by one Mr. Bob Dylan here on Earth.

Eick: It was a simple way, I thought, to communicate clearly the idea [the show is not set in the future.] That this is a story about a culture that gave birth to ours. There was an episode in season one in which Helo and Sharon are running for their lives. They hole up in a diner and there’s a cylon centurion cornering them. For the longest time we planned to have an old jukebox in the diner that would play “Yesterday”, or whatever we could afford—

Moore: Not “Yesterday.”

Eick: —Probably not “Yesterday.” Something from The Guess Who perhaps. I think we felt it was too soon. It would confuse things and…people would just be thrown by it, but we were thinking about it that far back, that music would be a great way to say to the audience that it follows [a] cyclical theme of “this has all happened before and will happen again.” This culture is the one that gave birth to ours, so that all the colloquialisms and all the slang that you hear and the behavior that is idiosyncratic—playing cards or whatever—we get that from them, not the other way around.

There’s been a lot of talk about how setting an end date for a scripted serial helps to recharge it. Did you find that true?

Moore: In terms of the writers’ room it certainly focused us. We made the decision that fourth season was going to be the last season once we got to the end of the third season. We had writers’ retreats, and we had dedicated sessions to say “this is the end, what’s the last story, what’s the final arc?” It really made everybody very focused and very specific about exactly how this was going to line up. Part of the motivation to make it the final season was that we didn’t want to get to the place where we felt like the ship was keeling over and we were having a problem. We all instinctively felt that the show had the reached the third act by the time the show got to the end of that third season.

Eick: Going back a year before that, Ron and I sat down for our biannual “what the hell do we do this year meeting?” Heading into season three there was a real sense of creative frustration. We wanted to expand the show and … find a new ways [of] story telling. [So season three] became what we call the cylon-centric season. It’s when we introduced the base ship, it’s when we introduced some new cylons. It gave the show life, but after a year of that, when we sat down heading into season four, it was a much shorter conversation. It was basically “okay, what if we end it? What if we just decide it’s over?” Let’s call this…the dovetailing season. If we know that going in, how would that inform story telling decisions?” So it was a very early decision. I remember from my perspective going into that 4th season there was a different energy on the set. There was tremendous focus and concentration that I was getting from the entire ensemble.

McDonnell: Part of what was extraordinary about that is as you are able to view [the end approaching] you can then kick into gear and plot your finish. What that ends up doing is simplifying things for you. You know where your head is and you can let go in many moments were you probably would have worked very hard [before, but] you didn’t need to. So a lot of us felt a kind of simplification. A kind of humility that came over us and that gives you a lot of energy. You just know where you are going and you are proud to be a part of it. And you let go. That was the experience I think many of us had.

Olmos: We had a meeting at the very beginning of the show and we all, 13 of us, sat down in my trailer—

McDonnell: He had the biggest trailer.

Omos: —it was beautiful! And we sat down as we discussed the possibilities. I talked to them about making sure we understood that if, by chance, this situation was to move forward and we were to do this as a series, and this was to go on to for one year, four years, ten years, who knows, that we had to understand what that meant… I just knew that…the story would have a beginning, a middle and an end, and that we had to pace ourselves.

So at the end of the third season, beginning of fourth season, we had a meeting, and we were told then that this was going to be the final season. Everybody got very depressed…I don’t think any of the actors wanted to stop the show… But we had hit the end, we were going into the fourth and final act. And we knew it. So we talked about the very first time we ever got together, and we said it’s like a marathon. In marathon you have to start off fast, really really intensely strong, your first mile has to extraordinary. Then the next 24 miles have to be consistent…. And then the last mile has to be the strongest mile that you’ve run the whole 26 miles…To win it, your final mile has to be your strongest mile… So we knew where we where coming from, we knew where we were, and now we knew where were going… I think that led to some of our strongest performances.

In the last scene, are “Six” and “Baltar” angels or demons?

Moore: I think they’re both. We never try to name exactly what the “Head” characters are—we called them “Head Baltar” and “Head Six” all throughout the show, internally. We never really looked at them as angels or demons because they seemed to periodically say evil things and good things, they tended to save people and they tended to damn people. There was this sense that they worked in service of something else. You could say “a higher power” or you could say “another power,” [but] they were in service to something else that was guiding and helping, sometimes obstructing, and sometimes tempting the people on the show. The idea at the very end was that whatever they are in service to continues and is eternal and is always around. And they too are still around…and with all of us who are the children of Hera. They continue to walk among us and watch, and at some point they may or may not intercede at a key moment.

CATEGORIZED UNDER: Apocalypse, Robots, Space, Space Flight, TV

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  1. Ali

    Thank You!! Loved the show so much and now I know I’ll sleep better knowing there are no little Cavill’s running around the universe plotting our destruction! :)

  2. Jeff

    Why did no one in the fleet disagree with the who burn the fleet and live in a disease infested mud hut? That is one of the major question I have, I most certainly would have told Lee to go frack himself and stolen a ship.

  3. Where is Dirk Benedict? I thought he was suppose to be the imperious leader, count ibili, or god?

  4. Mike

    I really appreciate you folks posting this interview, I’ve spent most of the night looking for some closer after the final episode, which obviously just aired a few hours ago.

    The “god did it” explanation was extremely unsatisfying for me. I felt like this show was above such ancient fillers for the unknown; it was as if Moore took the “push the envelope” ethos that was the show all these years, and decided to appease the status-quo by inserting some tired old period with a dash of the childish “you better be good or god will get you” mantra. i was waiting to have my mind blown all 2hrs 11m and I just ended up frustrated. My friend liked it a lot, but she is a die hard christian so go figure.

    I like the idea of leaving questions up to the viewer, but there wasn’t any question left at all, just a few plot holes to be filled with what the writing team already shoved in our face for the final few episodes; the supreme power.

  5. Xanyquarllzya
  6. This was an absolute lame ending to a great series! What is with this “Let’s end the circle of violence thing”? Starbuck just disappearing was lame and Hera’s incomplete role was a disappointment. The 150,000 year ending was STUPID. Ron Mooore butchered this.

  7. MotK

    Yeah, atheists are going to hate the finale, even though the entire show dealt with prophecies and the “gods.” Mike, maybe if you stopped putting your hands over your ears, screaming, “la la la la la la” and listened to what you’ve been watching for five years, you wouldn’t have been surprised or disappointed.

    Jeff, as for why no one told Lee to frak himself and take off, I think the idea was that everyone was just tired of running and living on makeshift houses in space, why not just settle onto a makeshift house on solid ground.

  8. Peter

    All of you who are looking for the series to explain the meaning of life to you should go read Dante. For me this was a beautifully executed ending.

  9. Mary

    Beautifully done. Laughed, cried, whaaat the frak?? a couple times. A good series wraps things up in a tidy package that can be quite boring. A great series leaves a few questions, it should, makes one think much longer. BSG has been the very best thing to watch for the last few years. Thank You Ron!

  10. Ramenth

    The episode was great. As an episode.

    As a series ending? Worst I’ve ever seen. More of a let down than Season Nine of Dallas (The Dream Season.) There’s nothing wrong with religious messages, but what we walk away with here is “God’s plan demands the annihilation of two entire races/cultures.”

    If that’s god; I’d want no part of it.

  11. Doug

    I still have a question. How could the finale be so f’ing retarded?

  12. Frak

    Galen moving to a cold “high land” by himself a Highlander allusion?

  13. Biff

    I really don’t think the god of the show, the Head Baltar and Six, are demanding the annihilation of 2 races. I don’t think they’re gleefully watching man and cylon destroy themselves, either.

    I take it more like this: There’s an ancient force – perhaps a god, perhaps just some alien race, perhaps even a precursor of the humans on Kobol, Earth, the Colonies, etc.

    This being and its followers (the Head Baltar and Six, Starbuck), have followed the Cylons and Humans and seen that they continue to destroy themselves. Maybe they’ve even tried to intercede directly (the Lords of Kobol?), but the cycle continues. So they tried to intercede subtly. The angels/demons/visions decided to manipulate two of the most important figures in the most recent destruction (Baltar the unwitting traitor and Six the childish tool of destruction) and guide them to help their people. They also sent a more sleeper-agent-like Kara to literally lead the people to a new, fertile world, when they were ready. They gave visions to Roslyn, and perhaps to others (there was a throwaway line by Anders where he said that they’d all seen visions, people who no one else could see, to warn them).

    The God and Head Baltar/Six are warning people throughout to walk a different path, and egging them toward becoming one people, toward ceasing the cycle of destruction. Then they sit back and watch how the people react.

    Some consider it cruel that they weren’t more obvious, didn’t come right out and say, “If you do this, you’ll all die, over and over, for all time,” but maybe they’ve tried and failed before (the possible Lords of Kobol thing).

    Much like the Christian God, who offers guidance and warnings, but ultimately leaves man to follow his free will, this god seems to leave the salvation of the fleet to the fleet.

  14. Jeff

    Frak – Gaelin went to a cold high land with supposedly no people, but I think he’s supposed to be some ancient predecessor to the Gaellic people, or at least a reason for that name to be used in that place.

  15. Frak

    @Jeff – but he said there were no people there. THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

  16. SteveO

    Kudos on a great run Ron and David. My question is…..Has one or both of you lost a parent? I ask cause the scene with Baltar breaking down about farming was spot on. It made me think of the times with my pop, who passed away 2 years ago.

  17. Jake

    I feel I watched a part of history tonight. This finale was beyond amateurish. I did not realize the bar had dropped so low for episodic television.

    Which is worse — the absurd nonsensical “explanations,” or the complete unwillingness (or inability) to tie up the various plotlines? I am so grateful that I never could get any of my friends or co-workers to watch this.

  18. Davethecylon

    So after watching these people survive the cylons we find out that they all die off because they were a high tech people who decided to throw all their stuff into the sun. Most were probably killed off by spear chucking neanderthals or realized they couldnt farm without any tools. At least Hera survived to be raped by a neanderthal so the human race could go on. Unless they explore the angels thing more in Caprica that whole thing is lame. If they had kept some technology some of them might have survived and started the colony of Mu or Atlantis in a more recent time and it might explain why they and our society reference the same gods.

  19. Jeff

    I could not have been more disappointed with the cowardly ambiguity of this finale. You built Kara up to be something, but without even your own idea as to what. That’s not writing. That’s daydreaming. You built Hera up to be something, but she turned out to be nothing more than a little girl. She affected nothing. You turned Adama into a simpering goat, who dealt with death on a daily basis but abandoned his son and everyone else because Rosslyn was dying. Apollo had lost a wife. Kara had lost a husband. Adama can’t suck it up and accept death? Hard to take.

    The head six and head Baltar were “angels” all along. No scientific explanation even attempted. Not for them. Not for Kara. Not for everyone’s various visions. All the work of some higher power. All along, we’re watching a show about a chaotic God who sometimes wants to do good, sometimes wants to do evil, and only plays with a few selected characters. No further explanation given. There’s a fine line between clever and stupid, but this is just disrespectful to your fans.

    You abandoned your prophecies – the dying leader DID live to see the new world. Kara Thrace was NOT the harbinger of anyone’s death.

    And her body was found on the old dead Earth. Yet the song led her to the new Earth. Yet the Viper was built to go to the old Earth. Yet the planet you showed when she returned was the new Earth. All it means is that you didn’t know what the heck you were doing. It meant nothing.

    The song woke up the cylons, but she heard it too. Her father taught it to her. And you can say it was a “music is universal” meme, but that’s garbage. THAT song was the coordinates to Earth. Hera drew it. Kara typed it. But if it was God, why did it wake up the Cylons? Did God do that? If it was a cylon trigger, why did Kara know it in her youth? She wasn’t any part Cylon, according to you.

    That’s writing of convenience. It’s lazy, undeserving of the build up you gave it, of the accolades you once received, and of your viewer’s intelligence. Deus Ex Machina is the simplest, tackiest “get out of jail free” card in writing, and you used it like carnival tickets, basically saying “God did it” for every one of your plot holes. Angels. Demons. Toy Robot montages. Hackery.

    It’s like saying, “Well, we wanted to leave it up to the viewer’s imagination weather or not Frodo made it to Mordor. Or weather Gollum was a hero or a villain.” Garbage. A writer makes decisions and tells a tale. If you intend on being ambiguous to encourage thought or posit the unknowable, then you do it with strong writing, and you tell your viewer that’s what it’s going to be. We didn’t need to see what Roy’s life was going to be like at the end of Close Encounters, we were artfully delivered to a place where our imagination could take over, and every promise made leading up to that point had been fulfilled. We know we’re not meant to understand the end of 2001. We were clearly told that whatever was happening was beyond understanding, but, like David Bowman, we had to know anyway.

    You made promise after promise, blatantly advertising, “They have a plan” and “You will know the truth”. But you did either. There was NO plan revealed, and not one single truth resolved in the finale. If you need ANOTHER two hours to wrap things up, unable to fit the narrative into a season of virtually hollow episodes, then all you’re doing is explaining yourself after the reading of the tale is complete. That means the tale itself was incomplete.

    There are spans of Galactica that are brilliant. But you brought it home in a mess that left no threads tied, no questions answered (apparently even in your own mind), and little satisfaction. What’s worse, is that in failing to resolve these threads, you’ve damaged the watchability of some previous great hours of television. Going back, I’ll know the prophesies meant NOTHING. The Opera House was no more than Baltar and Six taking a scared child to safety – the same exact place that Athena or Rosslyn themselves would have taken her. And that there was no outcome she affected, other than as a hostage that both sides cared for. It could have been Kara or Apollo or anyone that had been taken, rescued, and then held at gunpoint. Anyone. I’ll know that when Kara returns, there is no payoff. Just a wandering random two-planet confusion. Hours of foreshadowing and build up and prophecy that you DID NOT EVEN ATTEMPT to resolve. Just end.

    An ending is not a resolution. Galactica may have ended tonight, but you robbed your fans of a resolution.

  20. Not Cool

    Like a drunk staggering towards the 7/Eleven at midnight, the series fell on its face in the parking lot, and like flashback Bill Adama, puked on itself.

    How did Kara Thrace 1 get from the gas giant to Cinder Earth? I can get the whole Kara Thrace 2 resurrection/ascending thing but did God (I know IT does not like to be called that) resurrect the Viper too?

    After Earth 1 failed 2000 years ago did God make Earth 2 in 7 days with proto-humans in place or was Earth 2 created 152,000 years after Earth 1 as backup copy?

    I am not buying that the civies who complained about not getting a hot shower every day would go back to nature. And why not leave a few ships in orbit as a legacy for your descendants?

    Maybe Galactica the (Cavil) plan will answer some. Speaking of Cavil and the other bad skin jobs, were all of them at the colony or were some on baseships and the original 12 colonies? Sure they will die out without any women, but the bad toasters would live on.

    I felt ripped off by the unnecessary 20 minutes of Caprica flashbacks added just to sell the new straight to DVD movie. The only question I have about the flashbacks is what was Bill’s new assignment going to be? Eh, I’ll RedBox it with a free code.

  21. Aaron

    Thank you Jeff, for best bit of writing I’ve witnessed since season 3. RDM obviously thought his fans were idiots, and from the blogs I’ve been reading I’d say he was at least half right.

    I’ve re-watched the entire series over the course of the past 3 weeks and now I am nauseated. What a pathetic cop-out. If he couldn’t figure out how to tie up all the loose ends then he should have been able to find someone who could. Frak, there’s probably 100 explanations on the various fan sites that are better than what he and his writers came up with.

  22. kyle

    I agree with you completely Jeff. I’ve seen every episode and was really excited for the finale and to have all the questions I’ve had for so long answered. It answered nothing, it only revealed inconsistencies like with the old earth and new earth that you talked about that caused more confusion. It was poor writing and did the rest of the show no justice. And the crap with Kara…..there’s a difference between leaving some things open to interpretation and with leaving it with several holes in the plot. And what was the deal with Kara? Even if she didn’t end up with Lee and the happy ending for the human race didn’t extend to their relationship, they still could have given her character a better ending. It was so abrupt. It was like the actress died in a freak accident in the middle of filming and they had to edit the shit out of it to make it still pretend to work. The whole thing was just really disappointing.

  23. Chris

    I agree 100% with Jeff’s analysis of the ending and of the conclusions that were either botched or left open-ended. It was wierd that the whole conclusion of Razor was built around making Kara the harbinger of death, which didn’t happen here. And your bit about her, the Viper, and the two Earths is also spot on – I wonder if the writers knew this when they wrote the last episode. I’ve been feeling the show drift this way ever since they got off New Caprica – it was obvious that the majority of Season 3 is filler, from the escape from New Caprica to the Trial of Gaius Baltar, so I’m not surprised it ended here (I give them credit for making it this far, seeing as it started out as a mini-series), but Jeff is right that the show somehow managed to a) run out of ideas, and b) have too many undeveloped ideas. Daniel? How can you develop an episode around him and do nothing with it. Dean Stockwell thought it would be good to commit suicide, just 30 seconds after being preoccupied with the survival of the Cylon race? That made NO fracking sense. Kara vanishing, she can be whatever we want her to be? Cop-out. You’re the writers, so write her character. You didn’t have to kill her – her death accomplished nothing. The Final 5 didn’t find the way to Earth, they just noticed a signal from a Viper, and that was Old Earth, whatever the heck that meant. Kara can’t be a Head character – she had her own visions of Head characters in her Dad. Don’t try to tell me that your Angels can see Angels – dumb. Adama becomes a recluse, even though he spent the last 4 years learning to love his son, standing by his XO Tigh? Sorry- doesn’t make sense. Pythian Prophecy? Abandoned, even though it drove the show for 2 seasons. Also, what was the signifigance of the nebula where the Final 5 turned on? If that was a rest-stop for Old Earth, how did the same song lead Kara to New Earth? Why did she spend the first half of Season 4 being driven by a higher power to find Old Earth when it was NEw Earth that was her destiny?

    Yeah, deus ex machina (which does have a funny double meaning if we consider the god-like qualifies of the machines here) was overused. It is clear that the writers dug themselves a few too many holes. I remember getting very angry when the cast said that the first episode of the second half of Season 4 would have been the finale if the strike had persisted, because that would have left too many questions to have the series make any sense on the whole. But, its not much better to use a mysterious God to explain everything. And why did Head 6 keep telling Balter that he would write humanity’s last chapter? It looks like all he did was abandon his harem (what purpose they served, I have NO idea), drop off Hera (who writes Bob Dylan songs and gets her groove on with primitive humankind) and go farming.

    And yet…I liked the episode. Why? Because the series is at its best not when it does grand ideas like trying to explain evolution and the cycle of violence ; it is at its best when it explores the humanity of its characters. I held my breath when Adama put his ring on Roslyn’s finger. When Gaius Balter cried that his life had come full circle and he understood his father, that was good TV. Lampkin has always been a great character in whatever he does – his kind of foresight (making Lee president in Sine Qua Non) made sense, and I thought he would have been the 5th Cylon, not Ellen Tigh. Minor characters like Zarek, Gata, even Hoshi stole the screen with their own dramas. In short, the show was best when it played like a soap opera, and at its worst when it tried to pull some Wachowski brothers MAtrix stuff.

    Unfortunately, we see this often with TV shows today. A movie has to be coherent and self-contained in a 2 hour format, but TV shows have things like writer’s retreats, fan feedback, and unexpected plot twists. Continuity suffers. It is distracting, and it hurts the credibility of the entire series, but thankfully, the series is still one of the best on TV.

    I can’t wait to forget about all the God crap, go back and watch the series on DVD from the beginning, and remember that the reason why I’m even bothering to write on this forum is because the show is/was that damn good. It took guts to take a space opera and maroon it on a planet at the sudden end of a season, to tackle issues like abortion, genocide, suicide bombing, etc. That’s the BG that won so many fans, including me, and I hope that the writers and producers figure out how to reconcile that BG with the preachy, open-ended BG of the last two seasons in the upcoming specials like Caprica.

    The fans deserve better.

  24. Ryan

    I agree with just about everything Jeff said, besides the mutiny episodes almost everything has felt like filler up until this ending that really felt frustrating because it really seemed like ever they never had a plan and just winged it all together.

    Also what was with all the flashbacks to back on Caprica? Some seemed interesting, but most felt like filler in the critical last few hours of the entire series. So Roslyn confirms she’ll join the political campaign, Baltar tells 6 he’ll help her. Haven’t we covered all this already?

    Then why would they ever discover a new world and ok eliminate your technology entirely which is ridiculous enough but then go on to split up and go their separate ways? What happened to their survival instincts and this whole idea of humans working together, especially seeing neanderthal like humans on the planet do you really want to be splitting up and assuming that they won’t try to attack you? And Roslyns dying so he just decides to say goodbye on the spot and never see his son or any of his friends again?

    As another said, as an episode it was great, as an ending of the entire series it felt like a whimper : ( a frustrating one at that

  25. Red

    I really enjoyed this episode up until Adama flies off.

    After that Kara just *vanishes* and the whole journey of Lee&Kara where they had finally reached a point where they could pursue something togeather was made into nothing. All that time and energy and engagement, burned in one last dang ‘gotcha’.

    Then it turns out that Lee was wrong, because she is forgotten.

    Oh and the whole point of trying to ‘break the cycle’ was futile too apparently.

    Essentially the last 20 minuets were a waste.

    Thanks Ron :(

  26. Not Cool

    Two more things are bugging me.

    Couldn’t the baseship jump to Cinder Earth to tell D’Anna Biers (the last Number 3) “Cavil is deand and hey we found a good Earth so come and join the gene pool”? I guess Lucy Lawless was unavailable.

    Not enough Leoben Conoy (Number Two) in the finale. I was hoping he would explain Starbucks resurrection.

  27. ShutUpRob

    I’m very amused by the polarizing reaction to the finale. IMO, that means that they did right. As did that other evocation of “All Along the Watchtower, ” the polarizing and largely misunderstood Watchmen movie. Those that can’t handle ambiguity are kinda like, well, Commander Cain, who eventually refused to see anything in anything other than black-and-white, no shades of grey.

    Seems to me that they missed the entire set of points of the series: the religious satire of the Cult of Baltar (which may or may not have transformed into the paganism that eventually turned into Wicca), the juxtaposition of the Cult of Baltar with the Greco-Roman pantheon that the Colonies were based on and the Norse pantheon that that Cylon Models seem to be based on. And then the Judeo-Christian mythology represented by Red Six and Red Baltar (I decided to rename them for myself based on the color of Red Six’s dress rather than on the fact that they were in Caprica and Baltar’s heads), acting as mischief-makers and, as Red Six points out in the present day, as random influences, game-changers ala string theory on otherwise orderly mathematics and psychology of human behavior.

    i love the fact that the show raises more questions as it answers the questions that we already had — such as:

    1) Could Sam, as a new Hybrid (more or less) have decided to ignore his programming and jump the fleet past the sun?

    2) Since the data about reassembling the Resurrection technology was at least starting to come through via the Final Five, could Sam have absorbed the knowledge in the rest of the Final Five to have recreated the full Resurrection technology on his own?

    3) Are Red Six and Red Baltar more or less Lucifer and Loki? And what might that say about God’s creation of them and using them as “angels”?

    4) Why was the Galactica represented as an Opera House in the prophecy? Why was D’Anna allowed to see the Opera House Prophecy during her many resurrections?

    4a) More generally, I like that in the fulfillment of the Prophecy, Caprica and Baltar were heroes, protecting Hera from Cavill rather than turning out to be the villains that Cavill turned out to be and that the show had previous implied (deceptively and mischievously so) that they were. Instead, Caprica and Baltar ultimately overcame their selfishness and grew up over the course of the series — Baltar doing so at the last minute because, well, he procrastinates. Nice touch, their redemption.

    5) It seems like the Final Five built the Cylon Models hundreds of years before the events of BSG. So how in the heck does that gibe with the apparent events of the new series, “Caprica,” in which Eric Stolz’s character, Daniel (hmm . . . where have I heard that name before?) builds himself something of a Cylon model based on his daughter?

    6) Why did Torri conveniently not come clean about spacing Callie until the Final Five melded to assemble the Resurrection plans? Seems like an awfully convenient turn of events, considering that she was on the verge of imperiousness when she went to the Rebel Basestar and seemed to be assembling her own faction/fiefdom among them. She would have been coming from a position of strength to have tortured Tyrol with the knowledge that she spaced Callie. And why did she take a position right next to Tyrol during the melding when she was voicing trepidations about the fact of her murder of Callie would be coming out during the meld. Seems like she should have taken a position on the other side of the tank, with Sol and Ellen in-between her and Tyrol.

    8) Why did Bill hesitate for a moment when the interrogator asked him if he were a Cylon? Seems like, given his later outrage and overall Colonial hatred of the Cylons at that point in the past that Bill would have just instantly replied something along the lines of “Of course not!” Might this hesitation be addressed in some way during the course of the “Caprica” series?

    9) Since Starbuck didn’t necessarily recognize him as her father, could the person that visited Starbuck be another emissary of the Higher Power ala Red Six and Red Baltar? If he is an emissary/angel of the Higher Power, is he taking the form of Daniel, the ill-fated model 7?

    10) I had initially thought that Caprica’s baby had died because being a total Cylon, it had no soul, but that’s clearly not the case. So did the baby die not just from the stress of Ellen’s manipulating and arguing with Sol or from Caprica realizing that the baby was conceived of incest in the same way that the dying Non-Descript 8 called Sol her father and Ellen made him realize that all of the model lines are his and their (the Final Five’s) children? Did Caprica’s heart break at the incest or the arguing between Ellen and Sol (Mommy & Daddy) — or both? (NOTE: This is *almost* a rhetorical question.)

    11) After being apart for so long, why did Caprica and Baltar reunite as lovers so quickly after she miscarried the baby and theoretically should still be trying to cope with the psychological effects of realizing that she and Sol unknowingly committed incest?

    I don’t see the 20 minutes or half-hour of epilogue unnecessary in the slightest. It mirrors/compliments the first hour of the miniseries — or, if you will, Act One versus Season One’s Act Two. IMO, the series is classic five-act structure, not four-act structure, with Act One being scene-setting and exposition ala most of that Bard Guy’s Act Ones. I think that like all great works, the series defiantly refuses to answer many of the most important questions regarding its meaning, with the plot, even as the characters’ journies resolve, is nevertheless entirely subservient to the necessity to provoke these questions of theme and meaning and character revelation and more.

    And finally, did the show provide just an ending but no resolution? IMNSHO, that’s trying to make a distinction where no difference exists.

    — Rob J.

  28. Vladimir Poopin

    I’m not religious and accepted the finale as is. God or god doesn’t necessarily mean religion. What of us out here that believe in a universal power? The message I take away from the series is that there’s no need to be evil, greedy, materialistic… you get it. Unfortunately, the way the world is today, a global war that brings us near to extinction is what it will take to realize that. And no… I’m no tree hugger :-)

    As for those that made comments about dumping their technology…. they had no choice. How would they sustain/maintain that technology when 99% of the the global population was tribal/primitive?

    Did I miss something? There was no final survivor count at the beginning or end of the finale.

  29. Vladimir Poopin

    Oh yeah… Colonel Ty’s cackle while doing recon on the tribe was priceless.

  30. Jack

    I am as anti-religion as RDM (and he is a pretty militant agnostic), and I found no problems with the ending being more spiritual, or god-like in nature. First of all, there is nothing to indicate that the final scene means there is a god, as our popular culture thinks of it. More that there is a greater power in control of at least some parts of the universe. The Matrix called it the Architect. Whatever it is, it is not necessarily similar to the way religion views it. So, those troubled by the ending, or who loved it, because of their own prejudices toward the notion of god and religion, are cheapening the meaning behind the show.

    It is not preaching god or religion. It is saying that this is how people look at it… and that there is something powerful in the universe that might just be at play. The universe is far more complicated than we can sometimes accept. And there may be scientific answers to most things, but not all. RDM is simply stating what the most logical minds in science have said… most things can be explained, but not all things.

  31. Crow

    For all you dumb f@cks bitching and moaning….why don’t you all go and create something yourself and see how easy it is. Bitch, bitch, bitch.

  32. jesusfreaks

    I love all the people who start out “I’m not religious at all but even I like the god thing!” Sure your not religious at all….

    Crow you might want to grow up and use different words… The argument about “omg you go do it your self” is a tired overused thing to say. Its called criticism.

    The cough out angers me as well. I for one would have begged to go with the the centurions on their way to who know where then stay on a planet to have sex with basically animals at the point.. uh gross.

    I have seen arguments that say “How is it that your ok with fantasy like FTLs, the force, etc but not with the ending being simply god’s will? Morons you just realize you in your own words just said gods a fantasy right?

    Oh well I’ll just pretend the last ep didn’t happen.

  33. Joe Adcock

    The ending of the series was set over 30 years ago, when original series creator Glen Larson set out to tell an alternative origin story for mankind. The idea that humanity was “seeded” on the Earth by more sophisticated ancestors was a commonplace pseudo-scientific theory of the 1970s,popularized by writers like Erich Von Daniken. Whatever the ultimate fate of Colonial Humanity, it was inevitable that they would be portrayed as the ancestors of modern humanity. Don’t blame the producers of BSG 2.0 if you managed to forget that fact over the past three decades. The anti-scientific cultural suicide of humanity and the destruction of the fleet in the sun are all necessary to establishing the “lost” nature of humanity’s true origins.

    The finale was as exhausting and painful as the show has become. With the confusion over the nature of humans and cylons, it has been difficult to identify with anyone in the cast since Season 2. I thought Lee Adama was speaking directly for the creators when he complained of how our souls lag behind our development of technology. His view was an interesting counterpoint to Sam’s flashback interviews, in which he articulated the Cylon philosophy of perfection. It seems like the bleakest and most lonely universe of any major space opera franchise; nothing in all those light years except humanity and its evil twins. Bring on the Space Squids, I need something to clear my palate.

  34. Matt

    Here’s the deal people (mainly a reply to JEFF).

    1) Kara is the Harbinger of Death because she leads both the Cylons (minus Cavils extra base ships out there which will die out naturally because of lack of resurrection) and the humans to the Dream-Earth. On this planet, the remaining Cylons and Humans are separated up into groups, and will mate together. Even if the Humans only mate with the Humans, eventually over 150,000 years all the purebred Humans will have mated with a Cylon-Human mix, whether from the children of Helo and Athena, Baltar and Six, Hera herself, or what have you. This completely kills off purebred Humans, and Cylons, all because Kara lead them to a place where this could happen.

    2) The dying leader who is meant to lead people to earth. I cannot remember (I may be wrong, please let me know) if the prophecies said ANYWHERE that she would die before arriving there. Again, Jeff if I’m wrong let me know and I will simply give this more thought.

    3) Kara’s Viper having the wrong coordinates was absolutely essential to breaking the cycle. That was the idea, you’re looking into it too narrowly. If she did not lead them to nuked earth and instead to dream earth there would have been problems at the time. First thought that comes to mind is the issue with the final Cylons. Where did they come from? Who are they? Who were they before? All of that is answered with the nuked planet. Along with that, we have the problem of Cavil still being out there in full force searching for them, with far superior fire power, are they to settle on earth and await their demise from Cavil one day? The prophecy only makes sense if Cavil is able to be defeated, had that been dream earth that could not have happened. Dream earth would have fallen to Cavil at that point, and the Cylon Colony was still alive and thriving whereas strengthening the fleet not only would have been a disaster with everyone wanting to live on dream earth, but simply because there would have been no way to magically increase their numbers or build another Battlestar to better fight Cavil.

    4) Adama not being able to “suck it up”. Yes, a lot of people had to go through horrible things and people dying, however this was Adamas final evolution back into a regular human being. Along the course of the show Adama lets go ever so slowly of the hardened military man he is, and becomes a younger and more soft person instead. It was perfectly fitting that he was finally able to embrace this loving side of himself once and for all, as this persona is within all of us. He was not a “simpering goat”, he was human. Think 300, when Leonidas leaves his Queen to go fight the Persians, he wants to tell his wife he loves her, but he can’t, for that wouldn’t be Spartan-like. In Adama’s case, the end of the world and humankind has been thrust upon him, he has no need for looking tough anymore, he wants to not merely exist, he wants to LIVE. Just so happens true love is living. ;)

    5) Hera “just a little girl”. Who also happened to plot the coordinates for dream earth, become the first ever Cylon-Human, who will carry on the races of both the Cylons and the Humans together, and in the end drew everyone together to finish off Cavil who would have surely hunted them down. She was a half-foil character too, bringing out a lot of interesting things in other characters. Emotions, plot lines, many many things came to be because of Hera. She was HUGE, not just some little girl. Open your eyes, she’s not some super-mutant if that’s the idea you had in mind.

    6) The song. Here’s the deal with the song, all this has happened once, and all this will happen again. The song is seen as something all the FINAL CYLONS (not all Cylons, for only the final five survived after nuked earth) Cylons had heard before, on nuked earth. It triggered them to remember who they were, wake them up, and draw them together once they started telling each other they were hearing things. The whole part where they all magically get to the same empty room at the end of Season 3 was merely a visual artistic decision, to really “wow” everyone and lay it out in front of them. They were already talking to one another (for instance anders and tyrol), and eventually would have noticed that they were the only ones hearing this song. Eventually they all would have either realized they were Cylons, or gotten themsleves access to Baltars machine and tested themselves. Or hell, maybe D’Anna would have told them who they were secretly when she arrived! Do not look at them all gathering in that one room as some sort of god directing them there, it was nothing like that.

    7) The Opera house. I’ll lay it out nice and easy. Baltar and 6 are Angel Baltar and Angel 6, Hera is their daughter because THEY have succeeded in putting the pieces together allowing for her to become the special girl she is (see 5). The Opera house as a symbol is where true and harmony can take place. Cylon (Athena) and Human (Laura) together in one place where both of their species will merge and become harmonious with one another. Laura is merely representing humanity, and Athena is merely representing the ability of kindness and trust that the Cylon’s to indeed possess. I suppose Adama could have been in Lauras place, but Laura is the true leader of humanity. Both of them (Athena and Laura) are chasing the dream of Hera who will unite their peoples in a wonderful way and on a wonderful planet, and Hera is going towards Baltar and 6 who are laying out the pathway for Hera to be able to make that dream happen. Period.

    Anyways, there was an ending, there was resolution. It was the symbolism that it is not the ending that truly matters, it is the journey there. All this time they were chasing a dream, wanting to find earth, without realizing how important and life changing the journey was getting there. In the end some parts are depressing, for Adama cannot enjoy Laura, Lee cannot enjoy Kara. They worked hard to achieve an environment (cabin for Adama + Laura, freedom like that night before Kara got married where they yelled out they loved each other for Lee + Kara) where that could happen, but it never did because they carried out their duties instead. Sad, but because of this, other people were given the ability to be happy instead. 6, Baltar, Athena, Helo, the people of the fleet. To just touch on the idea that it’s the journey not the destination that matters idea again, imagine the whole series up to this point and how wonderful it was for you, that’s what matters, not how flawed you think the ending is. Give it some time, and some thought, and maybe one day you’ll see the different meanings the ending brings about, and the symbolism’s it possesses, and then not only will the journey have rocked, but the ending as well.

    Cheers.

  35. Brian

    Yes, I agree 100% that god is a fantasy…and I still thought the ending was great.

    It’s fiction. Who cares if the BSG universe contains a higher power or not. All that matters is that it makes for an interesting story, and I was thoroughly entertained.

  36. Domenic

    I loved it! The only thing I have is they made all these elaborate plans to attack the colony, but the only thing they didn’t plan ahead for was to input the coordinates for their escape into the FTL computer. I would think if you’re going into battle that you would input the coordinates as soon as you arrived at the colony, this way all you would have to do was turn the key and not leave it to the very last second.
    Other than that, it was a great ending to a great show. Thank you Ron.

  37. Ken

    The Sopranos ending lowered the bar for everyone else. When our favorite shows end and the conclusion doesn’t hit the mark, we can say, “At least it wasn’t as awful as the Sopranos’ ending”.

    I can understand wanting to settle down on a planet and ditch space travel, but to abandon 100% of the technology and comforts and go Christian Science was cheezy. First time I had to go # 2 and there was no bathroom, I would have pulled a Dean Stockwell and blew my brains out.

    Maddoff is a cylon

  38. Peter

    Bravo, Matt. You said it perfectly.

    I agree 100%

  39. Tanker

    Strangely enough, scientist believe that the “mitochondrial Eve”, the most recent common matrilineal ancestor of all humans alive today, lived about 150,000 years ago in East Africa, somewhere close to the equator…… Now we know what her first name was……

    So I guess we all have Cylon blood in us

    Hehehehehehe

  40. Abbadon

    UNFORGIVABLE! What were guys thinking? You wove a beautiful tapestry of myth,hope,love tragedy and imagination only to leave it to unravel. What are you guys the A.I.G. of story telling? Patting yourselves on the backs and looking forward to the bonus of “Caprica” ?
    YOU Failed us. We invested in these charterers, enjoyed their evolution, Only to have your pull a “Ponzi” maneuver with your plot?
    Its like you have a Baseball team, playing a great season, getting to the world series winning 3 games out of seven and , then not show up to play….Oh God did it all.
    Lets just throw out the character driven plot, drop them on a planet and have them say… aww shucks….
    Where is the reactions to their whole shift of paradigm?
    Whose God/Gods did all these wonders?
    Too many instances of Why? Oh God did it….
    So survival , self determination, relevancy to ones self, culture and faith is abandoned?
    The foundation of their whole journey and sacrifice wasted for some heavy handed commentary on ” look where we are now”. Do you really think your fan base is that imbecilic? That We didn’t get it from day one?

    BETRAYAL! “We wanted to make the most realistic, gritty Sci-Fi show” Years of hard work on everyone’s part nullified in the second half of the last episode. “Kara is whatever you want her to be”….What a coup out, sleazy, slight of hand theatrical masturbation ploy.
    She wasn’t worthy of the time to treat her story right? We will just turn the camera and she will be gone…
    To have It all come down to “Subjective Reality. ”
    Wow, the disappointment is staggering.

    I spent the next hour and half picking it all apart with my friend. All of witch the fans have previously described. All the flaws and highlights. Deciding to tell our friends who have not yet witnessed the great story lines, wonderful acting, magnificent special effects, good musical scores, deep thought provoking drama…; that it was truly great till They Failed us and ended it with a Hole laden whimper.
    Someone should have told the Cylon Emperor writers about their new clothes. This ending is like painting the Mona Lisa and signing it in finger paint!

    At the end of the credits this time should be both Ron Morre and David Eick hung by their disappointed loyal fans{ teasing of course, like their cartoons}

  41. SteveA

    great discussion here but everyone missed something.

    If Hera was found 150000 years later as the body of a small girl next to her ( Cylon and Human) parents, then she is not mitochondiral Eve. Maybe I misheard that part and she may have lived to be an adult with children, but regardless, Athena, and any of the surviving 6′s that may have had children, would be a also be mitochondrial Eves.

  42. WHY?...O, God did it.

    Matt I agree and understand with what you wrote in number’s 1-6 in response to Jeff, but not with #7. The opera house was a rush job, and having it be the CIC was ludicrous even though the writers did make a good ‘attempt’ at it (I wish I could raise the ceiling whenever I need room to cram things in). And being Scot-Irish I hope I don’t read too much into the Galen going to the “high-lands” but my heritage seems to always reflect the blue-collar, secretly depressed, alcoholics that experience Murphy’s Law on a daily basis.

    BUT, I MUST side with Jeff and I’m not sure why….”call it divine intervention if you must”. But seriously, Starbuck not only NEEDED clarification, but deserved justification rather than simply drawing some Jesus-like conclusion. If I wanted to see that she had to die and was resurrected so God’s children could enter the kingdom of heaven I would go watch KINGS (good show, but it sells itself solely as over-the-top modern-day biblical drama so this plot line would be acceptable there). A rushed conclusion where viewers have spent OVER 74hours and to simply say in the last hour that “Oh, yeah, forgot, Kara was simply a ghost/angel/mind-frack sent to help you after she was forced to die by God’s loving hand because the end-justifies-the-means” is a shitty Dallas-dream ending used to fix-it-all and separate yourself from any wrong doing. Personally I would have taken a St. Elsewhere ending to this.

    Having to choose solely from the episodes made, wish the series ended in S4E12 when they find ‘nuked-earth’. But that wouldn’t have worked for them to sell their spin-off series which will be dumbed-down for the masses to generate profits (this is coming from someone who grew up watching SG1 and finally realized after high school it was almost the same shit every week [blame it on replicators, ghould, ancients formula]). The only good storyline to come after this was having the mutiny aboard Galactica with Tom Zarek and Gaeta (including the webisodes). I did ‘lulz’ when Cavil shot himself, seemed fitting for when a power hungry control freak knows they’ve lost everything and know the jig is up.

  43. David

    Now I mean no offense to anyone, but I have to agree fully with Jeff, Chris and others on this. I liked the show, overall, but it did just seem to lack “closure” in the end. It’s left a bad taste, kinda like when you’re eating something good, but then hit a bad spot in the food and it just ruins the whole meal.

    Now I won’t go into all the loose ends that were left open or not fully explained because they have all been covered on here allready. But needless to say, I do believe that we the fans, deserve to have our concerns/questions answered by David Eick and Ron Moore themselves.

    And, if we want to be optimistic here, it’s not to late to actually tie up some of these ends. We live in the era of the prequil’s. There is no reason why they could not shoot a special, or maybe even just some webisodes, that go back and tie things up completely. It’s not like they haven’t done it before on this show. (“Battlestar Galactica: Razor”)

  44. Andre212

    I have a question, I hope someone can answer:

    Didn’t Tyrell and Cally have a child? And wouldn’t that child be part Cylon? And what ever happened to her/him? She/he wasn’t with him when they arrived on new earth.

  45. Optimistic Future

    ^to David @ 10:39am

    Also being an optimist, I ONLY WISH THEY DO READ THIS AND FULFILL IT, or somehow the movie “The Plan” is used to its fullest and resolves/fixes what the last episode was supposed to complete but failed.

    Such as….let the *shock* of the over-used religious tones with Starbuck marinate in the viewers minds for a couple months……then resolve them with some background information that wasn’t told/foreshadowed before to reign in people like myself who hated this final episode.

    ******************************************************************************
    BTW, if Mr. Moore and company were to read this, I am going to kiss their ass here and say that I do appreciate the series they produced and loved it. When I say “I hated the final episode”, I mean that ONLY because of the part from when they landed on “new earth” until just before the 150,000yrs later scene (the future part was a neat conclusion w/ the robots, Hendrix, & RDM cameo).

    But to leave the viewer with the “new earth/starbuck-vanish” and pimping out the spin-off series with night-club flashbacks wasn’t cool to do. What would be cool is if some ideas from the disappointed viewers were incorporated to resolve it and have the series (in my opinion) FOR SURE go down as the BEST post 9-11 series.

  46. crispy

    That finale was frakkin’ awful. If I wanted fairytales, I’d go to church.

    Quotes from Ron Moore like “Cavill killing himself actually came from Dean Stockwell” make it pretty clear that Moore did not have an overall vision for this show. Weak, lazy writing. I feel betrayed.

  47. Optimistic Future

    ^Andre212 : Watch episode “A Disquiet Follows My Soul” from season 4 or read below

    Cally and “Hotdog” hooked up before Tyrell and her got married on New Caprica. Just another one of the many “Murphy’s Law” problems for the Chief.

  48. Peter

    Considering that the producers’ stated aim was to make people think, I’d say they succeeded admirably at that.

  49. Curious Jorge

    I have decided that I won’t make a decision on the ending immediately. The show deserves more than that.

    However, I do have a question that I think others may have missed. In regards to Adama getting questioned under the lie detector. The guys asks him if he is a Cylon right? But the timeline is all wrong for that question unless he has a LOT more information than he should. They didn’t know about the “skin-jobs” until AFTER the attack on Caprica correct? Or did I miss something?

  50. Brian

    The harbinger of death and the end of humanity was her leading them to Earth and them effectively putting an end to their way of life. She was resurrected by God to complete her purpose becase she had, obviously out of sync with what she was being guided to do, decided to efectively kill herself before her time.

    And what is wrong with Head Six and Head Baltar being angels or demons or whatever? Sure, it took me a while to really ‘get it’ and understand why certain things were done, but in the end the whole thing was a commentary on science, spirituality, logic, and what it means to be human and be at the mercy of a higher power.

    The people tried to atone for their sins that their ancestors for many thousands of years had commited ad break the cycle of violence. They tried to ‘please’ the higher power which, regardless of what Head Baltar says, I will call call God. They wanted to be sure that they had done everything they could to keep their descendants from falling into the same hell of letting technology out pace their spirits. The Head Six and Baltar are basically just two servants that God uses to direct humanity, and it is up to us to listen; otherwise there will have to be a lesson taught, again. That is the key here. What it means to be human and, while we have free will, be judged and guided by something bigger than ourselves.

  51. Dennis

    @Jeff (3:27 am): Amen, I couldn’t have said it better.
    However, as disappointed as I was with the finale, I still think this was one of the best looking series ever on TV.
    Saw an interview where one of the producers said something to the effect that it was like shooting lots of 40 minute theatrical films – This was the aspect I most appreciated about this show.
    I watched it more for the visuals than for the writing.
    That said – maybe it was my imagination, but I thought I noticed a slip in the production values in some scenes of the finale.
    Did they maybe rush some segments, or were there re-shoots done with a second unit?
    Anyone else notice what I’m talking about?

    As for series finales – my vote for best-ever still goes to Star Trek: TNG.
    I thought that 2 hour finale was FAR better than any other episode of the series.

  52. Andre212

    A thought on the “questioning” of Adama.

    Was this a nod to BLADE RUNNER. (“Are you a replicant?”)

    I know LOST has done this on occasion

  53. Mark

    I think the are you a Cylon question should not be analyzed to deeply. As you are correct that no one knew about skin jobs. The man doing the interview says “Were just setting up a baseline” (don’t remember the exact words). He asked Adama the question seeing that Adama wasn’t a metal tin can, the answer ‘NO’ was a gauranteed truthfull response

  54. The Kaptajn

    If you didn’t want fairytales, why were you watching a science fiction show?

  55. Kellie's lament

    I am truly disappointed in the ending. I lament. I have many unanswered questions. I am among the many who have appreciated the dynamics of this series. Yet, am now left in bewilderment.

    With the exception of the Finale, it’s……

    Still the “Best Frackin’ Show” on television to date!!!

    It will be missed.

  56. B

    They didn’t say “small girl”, they said “young woman”. So Hera didn’t see a middle-age, but she lived long enough to reproduce and be Mitochondrial Eve.

    Nicky, Cally and Galen’s son, was actually Cally and Hotdog’s biological son.

  57. Dennis

    Also re: the questioning of Adama about being a Cylon -
    I had the same thought about it being before “skin-jobs” were known.
    But I think the deal is that the questioner responds to Adama’s shock at being asked the question by telling him “it’s only to establish a baseline”.
    In other words – he asks him if his name is William Adama to establish an unambiguous “yes” answer, then he asks him if he’s a Cylon, a metal robot, to establish an unambiguous “no” answer.
    What the questioner couldn’t have known at that time was that Adama could have been made of flesh and blood, but still been a Cylon.

  58. Brian

    Oh and the whole Earth 1 and Earth 2 thing. Did any of you haters ever consider that perhaps the higher power led them to the first Earth to show them what not to do. In order for them not to continue the cycle? Then, Kara was finally allowed to guide them to ‘their’ Earth and let them try not to repeat the mistake of the past. Just saying.

  59. Dennis

    Ah, Mark beat me to it and put it much more succinctly!

  60. DJHOE

    OK. Ima take a crack at it.
    What I got from Ronald Moore and why the writing was incredible.

    MORE ANSWERS?…

    So the “All this has happened before & will happen again” thing…

    -Lets accept the fact the earth-like planets can exist throughtout the universe capable of breeding the same basic DNA structure that can & will evolve into complex organism that will include what we call humans.

    KOBOL

    -Picture the whole story happened before, but last time they kept the technology, thus (said technology) kept advancing way, way, past what we can imagine now, possibly culminating in the “Resurrection Technology” of Ellen and the rest of the Final 5 (more on them shortly)

    -Last time it happened, everyone ended up on what became know as KOBOL, a single planet.

    -Something happened on KOBOL (war?) that caused some technology to become lost throughout the ages, so all that was left between KOBOL and current Caprica era people was some tech, scattered history through the scrolls, prophecies, religion, etc..
    The “Resurrection Technology” however, was lost.
    Somewhere during this time, what we know as “the 13th Tribe” may actually have been the first tribe to leave KOBOL, eventually settling on EARTH-1.

    -For reasons unknown to us, but possibly due to greed, decadence, tribal in-fighting, politics, whatever you wanna call it, the decision was made to leave/branch off of KOBOL (maybe it was made so toxic as to no longer support life?)
    this became…

    The 12 COLONIES

    -Life went on as the descendants of KOBOL settled on 12 neighboring planets, probably the 12 largest continent/countries/tribe (U.N.?) of KOBOL. Each got their own planet to settle and re-build KOBOL “ in their image/vision” (the American Way vs Communism, etc…)– which was different from the others visions, which caused the wars on KOBOL.

    -Now they still had a lot of tech to be able to branch out like that, and after settling the 12, the planets kept collaborating as the technology kept evolving, and in the quest to make life easier, on the road to “utopia”, they eventually were able to (re-?)invent/create CYLONs. Robotics fused with Artificial Intelligence.
    Free Labor for all!
    Slave-like, except since they weren’t alive, not viewed as such.

    -As advances in CYLON tech kept evolving, somewhere along the way, the tech got closer to perfection, and the CYLONS eventually became self aware.

    -This led to what was the 1st CYLON – 12 Colonies war, when the Cylons rebelled
    for what they must have felt was their divine rights, as they viewed themselves as alive, as they could now “Feel” some form of desire, for something/anything… even if they still looked like TOASTERS.

    NOW STAY WITH ME NOW, WE’RE HALFWAY THERE!

    THE FINAL 5 (Back on EARTH-1)

    -While all of this was happening on the 12 COLONIES,
    EARTH-1 was sort of heading in the same direction as the original KOBOL, only they were 1 planet and for reasons unknown, didn’t branch off like the 12 COLONIES, as the planet was getting ready to destroy itself through war (same bs fight – different planet?)

    -At this time, the people who became the FINAL-5, (re-?)discovered/created, or already had, the ancient KOBOL tech of resurrection, among other techs.

    (I think Ellen said when they got to EARTH-1, they kept their ships in orbit or something like that. Since in this cycle the tech was kept, maybe they decided to keep that resurrection tech to themselves or they found it hidden in a pyramid or something, or found enough tech to advance it once again to resurrection tech?)

    -The point is the FINAL-5 were from the original 13th Colonialists, and kept resurrecting throughout EARTH-1 history, to the point they realized EARTH-1 was about to go.

    -The FINAL-5 head back to the 12 COLONIES, where as per Ellen, they find the 1st CYLON – 12 Colonies war raging.

    -In an effort to end this war, the FINAL-5, unbeknownst to the 12 Colonies, offer the Cylons upgraded technology, advancing the CYLONS self awareness and intelligence even more, fused with the resurrection technology, which allows for the Cylons now being able to create “SKIN-JOB” Cylons, as opposed to the Toasters, as well as the new Cylon Raiders, etc.

    ARE YOU STILL WITH ME?

    IT IS MY OPINION THAT THE FINAL-5 WERE NOT CYLONS PER SAY, DUE TO THE FACT THAT AT SOME POINT GOING BACK, THEY WERE ACTUALLY BORN. THEY WERE HUMANS WHO COULD TRANSFER THEIR CONSCIENCENESS OR SOUL TO A NEW BODY/CLONE.

    -So now its after the 1st CYLON – 12 Colonies war,
    The Final-5 retreat with the Cylons and create the Colony on the edge of a Black hole.

    -Ellen, Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, and Tory – the FINAL-5,
    Set forth in upgrading the Cylons with the other models,
    But for reasons unknown, somehow kept their identities secret from the Cylons
    (Remember at first the Cylons didn’t know who the Final-5 were)

    Now keep in mind that only the other models were mass produced.
    The Final-5 continue to only resurrect as needed, retaining their original “souls”, where the other models, mass produced, each had their own unique personalities.

    Now eventually, the model know as Cavill became increasingly resentful of the humans of the 12 Colonies.
    He eventually persuaded the other models to exterminate the 12 Colonies, but was over-ruled by his “ Parents” ,the Final-5.

    -Cavill discovers the identities of the Final-5 and keeps this information to himself and possibly a few other CYLONS.

    -He eventually erases the minds of the Final-5, places them throughout the colonies and plants Cylon spies there as well (Six, Boomer, Cavill models etc…)

    which brings us to the current…

    2nd CYLON – 12 Colonies war – THE FALL

    -Now, the Hand Of GOD has been prevalent throught all these events.
    As we veer off-course from our Destiny, HE helps ups get back on track, not by snapping his fingers, but giving us repeated chances and assistance to get back on track.
    (Through great, great, sacrifice & Faith)

    -This way, we can, through HIS glory, do it for ourselves, as opposed to GOD snapping his fingers. Maybe, due to “ free-will” , HE cant make us “see”. We have to do it ourselves.

    OK, WHERE WERE WE? …

    Now all the events that occurred during the BSG storyline, was the journey needed (and engineered by DIVINITY) to bring Humanity & the sentient CYLON race to a point where we can start again, together.
    Another chance to break the Cycle of Death.

    People are having trouble understanding the fact that StarBuck was an Arch-ANGEL, a Divine Warrior.
    The fact that she was not a Ghost, and had a tangible body, was irrelevant.
    The fact that she didn’t know what she was, was irrelevant.
    God made sure she knew what she NEEDED to know, when she needed to know it, to carry out his DIVINE plan to give us another chance.
    She was a big part of HIS plan, to the point where not even DEATH would deter her from her mission, her Journey.

    I ask you this, who can really say their notion of an Angel (with wings & a halo for instance) is the correct one?

    Anyone or anything can be an Angel.
    Its our actions that define us.

    GOD is the universe and we’re beyond lucky he LOVES us.
    For even when we least deserve it, which is when we need it the most, HE loves us!

    In closing, Hera became Eve because She had Colonial and Cylon blood and mated with the locals on EARTH-2. Eventually this DNA became the prevalent 1 on the planet and we became the children of all 3 races. So we recognize this DNA as our own and it all started with Hera. Any bodies we find prior to that we will deem as not-human since it doesn’t match our own exactly, only in part.
    So the Galactica survivors were not killed, just lived out their lives on EARTH-2.

    My thanks to Mr. Moore, for keeping with the original theme of BSG and adding soooo much more dimension, (truth?) and energy, to this story.
    He is also showing us a Mirror with a message.
    Can you understand it now?

  61. crispy

    >>If you didn’t want fairytales, why were you watching a science fiction show?

    I don’t get the point of your question. Science fiction is grounded in reality and the natural world. That’s why it’s called SCIENCE fiction. Fairytales, especially religion, are made-up stories passed down to make unintelligent people not afraid of death. They are mutually exclusive.

  62. Jeff

    RE: MATT and ROB (and most of the others who liked it)

    You guys prove my point. Matt, especially. In your defense of the show’s ambiguity, you’re filling in the holes for the show’s writers. YOU are providing clarity from your imagination that was not present in the tale THEY told. And, the proof to my point, none of you agree on what went down.

    Guess what? You don’t even agree with Ron Moore. Read some of his next-day interviews, and be prepared to have your jaw drop open at what he didn’t even bother to figure out for himself.

    See, he doesn’t get credit for you dreaming up some ending for yourself. And to answer MATT’S great points….

    1) Kara is the Harbinger of Death because she leads both the Cylons and the humans to the Dream-Earth. Interbreeding and death are two vastly different things. They spent the show AVOIDING death – extinction. Now, if you want to argue that in the finale they failed, and extinguished humanity, fine. But it was clearly played as success. If they killed humanity, they did it by sending thousands of years of knowledge, art, literature, and medicine burning into the sun. But that wasn’t Kara’s doing.

    2) The dying leader who is meant to lead people to earth. I cannot remember (I may be wrong, please let me know) if the prophecies said ANYWHERE that she would die before arriving there.

    Pythia said, “…the leader suffered a wasting disease and would not live to enter the new land.”

    Oops. Now, this is just lazy. Roslin could easily have just died on Galactica and fulfilled the prophecy. She could even have SEEN it. Just not set foot. Lazy and disrespectful of their own constructs as writers.

    3) Kara’s Viper having the wrong coordinates was absolutely essential to breaking the cycle.

    No argument. Your theory works. But it’s YOUR theory, and if you’re right. If God needed them to see old Earth before finding new Earth, then why did he give out the music (which held the real coordinates) at the same time as hiding the needle in the Viper? Wasn’t it a flip of the coin which would be discovered first? Here again they’re relying on characters doing lucky things solely because that what God wants them to do. That’s how a bad writer motivates a character and a plot when it is otherwise going to defy common sense. Kara finds her own dead body. Explain it? Ha! Don’t have to, sucker. It’s God’s work. Lazy.

    4) Adama not being able to “suck it up”.

    I get the transition from military to normal man, and that works fine. But Adama fell into puking, drunken, tantrum-throwing, object destroying fits virtually every episode. Being drunk was a running theme, it seemed for him. Now, I don’t know what your definition of “normal” is, but that ain’t mine. People die. Roslin saw her death coming from a mile away, had lots of time to come to terms with it, and lived an exceptional life in her final years and months. I can see it breaking Adama’s heart, but breaking his will to live? Taking him from his son, in a survival situation? Taking him from his friends and crew who stood by him when they needed his wisdom still? It was very, very inauthentic to me, and diminished his character greatly.

    5) Hera “just a little girl”. Who also happened to plot the coordinates for dream earth:

    No, the music held the coordinates. She just spelled it out to Starbuck. One assumes she was on the path to figuring this out herself when she was playing piano with her dad.

    become the first ever Cylon-Human,

    The first, fine, but there was never any indication they couldn’t make other hybrids any time they wanted to shack up. If she was the only one there COULD EVER BE, then fine, we need her DNA. But she’s just proof that humans and Cylons can have a kid. As proof, she doesn’t really need to be alive to save either race, and therefore isn’t any more important than any other rescue might have been.

    who will carry on the races of both the Cylons and the Humans together,

    Unless she bears every a lot of children, no. People LIKE her will ultimately populate Earth 2, but she’ll personally have very (very) little to do with it unless she’s Octomom times a billion.

    and in the end drew everyone together to finish off Cavil who would have surely hunted them down.

    No, they established that a single raptor could nuke the colony and end it. If all they wanted was Cavill dead, they could have done that any time. And, to that point, if they were willing to trade hera for Resurrection, THAT’S a deal Cavill would have made ANY time. That would have been his preference, because Hera doesn’t give HIM immortality, she just perpetuates the race. Cavill wants that, but he wants it through resurrection a lot more than he wants it through icky random biology.

    She was a half-foil character too, bringing out a lot of interesting things in other characters. Emotions, plot lines, many many things came to be because of Hera. She was HUGE, not just some little girl. Open your eyes, she’s not some super-mutant if that’s the idea you had in mind.

    Fine. But being a fulcrum doesn’t mean that she’s any way important to the characters, only to the writers. Look at it this way. If they had not reverse-engineered Galen’s child to be fully human, would Hera have been important at all? No. ANY other hybrid is just as important to the characters as Hera. They may still have chosen to go rescue her, because she’s a child, and one of their own, but as for her being important because she’s a hybrid, they just didn’t sell it. They can basically make as many hybrids as they want, and have fun doing it.

    6) The song… Do not look at them all gathering in that one room as some sort of god directing them there, it was nothing like that.

    I’d be prepared to agree with that, if Kara had not been driven by the song. She was not a Cylon (per Ron Moore), she was an angel. She was an instrument of God, who heard the Cylon’s song, played it as a child, and interpreted it with some paint-by-numbers from a half-cylon child. Its first playing heralded her return from death. Is it a Cylon code? Or God’s message? Or both? No clarity at all here. All it was, was convenient. If Kara had been identified as the daughter of Daniel, then you have no problem here. But Ron Moore has categorically said there is no Daniel, and thus Starbuck is not his girl. So you have to write your own conclusion here, which is precisely the problem.

    7) The Opera house. I’ll lay it out nice and easy.

    Your ending is fine. The symbolism is workable. I saw it a different way. But while the symbolism is workable, the outcome was so mundane that you have to wonder why it needed to bother being symbolic or give people dreams at all. A scared little girl was running away from toasters, and all four adults in the dream were trying to do the same thing – get her to CIC where she’d be safest. Duh. She didn’t have anything to do there except get held hostage (in laughably convenient turn of events), never spoke a word, changed a mind, nothing. Not one thing happened in the Opera House as result of her going there. In fact, if she had NOT gone there, Cavill wouldn’t have been able to hold her hostage at all. The raptor would have still automatically nuked the colony, Starbuck would still have eventually figured out the code in her head. Galactica would have survived (as it did anyway). The only thing she did was to spur the final five to get their hands wet in an attempt to deliver Resurrection. So, sure, Galen screwed the prophecy. It was HIM, not Hera, who brought about the climax there. So if they don’t make a deal with Cavil, then they never get their hands wet, Galen never finds out about Tory killing his wife, and… no. It doesn’t make any sense in the context of a prophecy that was foreshadowed for years, repeatedly.

  63. Madame President

    I agree with both Matt and Jeff on their various view points. The whole thing that gets me is that instead of the heavy reliance of flashbacks, I would have preferred to see more of the characters good byes on the new earth. So Adama is a hermit with Laura’s grave, okay, but I thought we should have seen him give the final good bye speech to the fleet, and an especially poignant good bye to his best friend Ty. i wanted to hear Helo and Athena talk to Hera about their history, the people they knew, the sacrifices of those that did not make it and what it meant to them as they walked off, so that at least through her the stories of their peoples could live on. I wanted to see these characters, who lived and fought together, come together and leave each , so we could bear witness to their intimate departures. I found myself saying an emotional good bye to a show I have invested time in and I wanted my goodbye reflected through the characters saying goodbye to each other and that was not satisfied with the few goodbyes I saw.

  64. Leah

    I enjoyed the finale.

    For all who were disappointed by the finale with it’s religious undertones, I have to ask why? (and that’s coming from an athiest)

    This show, from season 1 onwards, has always been about people doing strange things/taking huge risks, based on hunches/visions/near divine intervention. In that context the ending of the show makes perfect sense, as does Kara’s role.

    For those who didn’t like the way certain characters acted in this show, I also have to ask why? This show has always been a character drama first, and a science fiction show second. The many flaws of the characters have always been there in the open. So a character didn’t act how you wanted them to in the end. So what? The overall story was pretty sweet. A very bittersweet ending.

    For those who are angered by the fact that the show leaves many questions, would you really want it any other way? Think of how boring it would be if they answered everything. Then we’d all be sitting here typing, “so that was why they did this”, and “that’s why that happened. Hmm. Ok”. This way we all get to have a pleasant arguement with one another. Yea!!!

  65. hurley

    at jeff number 7 on your list assumes they wouldve made the right decisions but theres no garuntee they wouldnt have obtained hera there was more than just cavill there they wouldnt have had the cylons back off which probably woulda meant that starbuck and everyone else wouldve been killed also or they woulda jumped but odds are that if theyd planned to jump to get out of the fire someone else may have put the rendeavu co ords in instead

    im an atheist but i actually thought this was a great ending to the show anything else wouldnt have fitted in with the story as a whole the story has alwats been geared between the mythos of religion and the circle of life

    they coulda given us a half arsed ending like the sopranos which woulda been like stopping this ep when kara they jumped but they gave us a structure tying off all loose ends

    hera didnt play an important role but she was always a symbol of hope peace sumthing to tie the cylons and humans together nothing less nothing more in my eyes the fact that cavill believed she was the secret to sumthing put pressure on her to do sumthing more but aside from having some coincidences(god work for the show ) she actually didnt do all that much her blood provideding temporary immunity for rosalyn is easily explained by the fact that the cylon cells in her body analysed the human ones for all weakness thus the antibodies in her blood could cure illnesses (why they never tried using this again is beyond me)(unless that weakened her explaining why she got a cold later on (although i cant remember if that was tied to sumthing in and of itself)

  66. fil

    I don’t know why everyone is getting all up in arms about the show’s end, it’s kind of where the entire show has been leading towards the whole time. Would you rather that midichlorians did it?

    Alternatively: FRAK this Lewis Carroll guy, it was all a DREAM? What a cop-out! There could have been A MILLION better answers than THAT! Like Alice could’ve been on CRYSTAL METH! Maybe he should just stick to doing MATH!

    @ “I love all the people who start out ?I?m not religious at all but even I like the god thing!? Sure your not religious at all?.”

    Your logic astounds me, I can appreciate a painting without wanting to hang it on my wall. I can enjoy scriptures as a story without subscribing to their dogma.

    @”Science fiction is grounded in reality and the natural world. That?s why it?s called SCIENCE fiction. Fairytales, especially religion, are made-up stories passed down to make unintelligent people not afraid of death. They are mutually exclusive.”

    Why do you think fantasy and science fiction is grouped so close together? In the end, when you can make up whatever science you please, it may as well be magic.

  67. Fan

    I’m an atheist, and I thought this was a fantastic ending. Very well done in too many respects to list.

    Andre212 – the child was not Tyrell’s. Callie got it on with someone else on Galactica.

  68. Matt Barks

    Loved the last episode! After the standard that the Soprano?s finale set, I didn?t have high hopes that BG would answer many earlier questions, but it did. Per the unanswered ones, I?ll paraphrase astronomer Carl Sager who said ?We all go to our deathbeds with most of life?s greatest questions being unanswered. The child in us will cling to religious fantasy and closure, the thinker/realist in us dies unfulfilled.? For the comments unhappy with the structure of the last episode, please direct me to the TV show the continuous episodic TV show that does end itself in a neat little box. I haven?t found anything close to it! Good multi-seasonal TV is written by a cache of different writers who color their stories with tangents. With the exception (maybe) of George Lucas, no single writer writes every story and maintains total continuity.

  69. Dennis

    IMO the most grievous example of the sloppy, lazy writing is the acceptance of the ~38,000 survivors to abandon their technology (as others have pointed out).
    The worst way a writer can screw up is to write in a way that completely destroys the “4th wall” and allows the viewer to see the “man behind the curtain”.
    When Bill and Lee were having their walk across the prairie, and Lee was selling his idea to his dad, I was thinking – “Well, this is b.s.! How is Lee possibly going to convince the rest of the population to go for this plan in the 15 minutes left of this series?”
    Well, in a text-book example of transparent, weak and lazy expository writing (look up expository if you need to), in the next scene one of the characters (might have been lawyer-cum-president-with-dog-guy, I forget) asks that very same question and has it quickly, simply and very weakly and unconvincingly answered, and we just move on as if it weren’t total b.s.!
    For me personally, that moment, rather than connecting me with the characters and the story, connected me with the writers and their dilemma of having to wrap everything up without having the time or creativity to do so in a credible manner.
    It completely removed me from the story – one of the worst sins a screenwriter can commit.

  70. Gene Moore

    Hmmm. The finale seemed like an appriate end to the jouney to me. As a fan of the original series I enjoyed the subtle use of the original theme music as the ships head off into the sun. And am I the only one who remebers the beginning of the old series “There are those that believe life here, began out there…” And with only the centurions remaining with the base ship we see that this series could be considered a prequel to the “original” BSG. Try and wrap you head around that one….

  71. Lucuis

    I have to agree with another poster. I CAN NOT WATCH PAST EPISODES ANYMORE. The series is dead to me.

    I had been watching the entire series since last weekend. Paying close attention to God’s Plan, all the prophesy and Head 6 dialogue. There werent any major inconsistances and I looked forward to some resolutions. There was so much that could have been done and season one dovetailed nicely to the last few episodes. I was dying to find out about the Opera House. The head characters. Peoples destinies. For instance the first time Head Six takes Baltar to the Opera House she speaks of SONGS and peoples destinies being in the notes. Great foreshadowing that fit the current plot.

    After watching the finale I cant finish the watching the series. There is no point. Nothing really has a resolution, the plot goes nowhere. Nothing has any real meaning. Its a dead end

    I dont have a problem with them going to old earth or giving up tech. I can even forgive there being another “earth”. But most of the plot was all swept aside. I would rather that none of it was resolved and left me with NO answers rather than the what we saw.

    They are good writers. They proved it in the past. Its like they just ignored what they had written for the past 5 years. I know they couldnt have pleased everyone with a finale but they could have at least left viewers satisfied. as others have said much was built up; the Cylon Plan, God’s Plan, Hera’s destiny, Baltars destiny, Pythia, The song, the Final Five, The nebula, The viper, Kara, The one true god/cylon religio vs the old gods; only to be forgotten and discarded for a couple of lines from Baltar. I see angels!

  72. Eliza

    I thought the end was really lame and seemed very deus-ex-machina.
    It seemed really flimsy and without depth.

    In commentary I’ve heard Moore say it’s all about relationships… how come none of the relationships save Laura and papadama had a real goodbye or a sense of ‘end’ that lasted more that 5 seconds?

    I wanted to love it. I really did, but after the first hour (which I will admit was really really good) it got all ridiculous.
    The angels, the “lets repopulate the earth” (it was done was poorly, honestly that’s such an easy way out, overall lame concept, anthropologically speaking its also pretty ridiculous), random weird flashbacks, the filler, the loose ends…
    Again, it was ALL deus-ex-machina. The use of mysticism to fill plot holes was lame.

    I love BSG so much and I’m sad about this.
    I plan on re-watching it a couple of times, maybe it will win me over… doubtful, though.
    Until then, I’m going to pretend that the episode ended when earth came into view.

  73. Lucuis

    PS to Ron…..

    Maybe the reason the fans went down the Daniel Rabbithole is because that makes MUCH MORE SENSE than what you ended up writing.

  74. Sally Hatch

    Thanks DJHoe for your explanation. When I saw the events in chronological order, I got the end.
    As the hybrids told Starbuck, she really “leaded the human kind to its end” because she broke the cycle of destruction, taking them to the Earth 2.

  75. Edward

    I was really disappointed by the final 10 episodes which kind of became “All My Cylons.” You know what’s funny is that one slight fix and the finale would have been 50% better. If they get to New Earth and they say, “They look more like us than anything we’ve ever encountered but we CANNOT breed with them. It would take nano engineering beyond our ability to make our DNA compatible.” Then you imply that both Cylons and the Colonial survivors will both go extinct on this planet and then you give the line about but “but before we do, we can give them the better parts of ourselves.” That would be so wonderfully poignant. (very Chariots of The Gods) Then you reveal that Hera is the “missing link” and only through her and no one else was the lineage of both Man and Cylons passed to Humans. By doing that Hera really would have been as clearly important as was built up AND Kara really would have lead the survivors to their extinction. (both were not really on the mark). Oh and was Adama going to build a cabin by himself and never see anyone again?

  76. Axel

    Plots holes (only a few) :

    1) no more resurrection technology ? Baseships were accompagnied by resurrection ships

    because the baseships were too far away from “home” (the hub ?) for resurrection to work.

    So they should still work ! So they should still can resurrect. They have those build ships

    so they should be able to build more !

    2) it was said that cylon were millions (I suppose, skinjobs+centurions+old model
    centurions)… Where are they ? The colony was to small to contains so much people. Maybe

    multiples colonies ?? Where are all the basestars ?(only a few were destroyed during the

    season 4)

    And where are the old style basestars ? We’ve seen that old style cylon fighters (and

    centurions) are well in use in the colony…

    3) If they still have resurrections ships, cylons can have time to reverse engineer
    resurrection technology (and maybe make multiple “hub” so that there is no single point of

    failure this time ).

    4) Only a few Leoben, six en eight were rebels (a few baseships if you remembr the

    episode). That does not mean that all of them ar rebel of were on the colony.

  77. PortaPetey

    I can understand some disappointment, but wow, there is really some righteous anger here!

    Interesting how we are all rather surprised that the answers to some of the major mysteries turned out to be…exactly what they’ve been telling us they were all along! The biggest surprise was that there were no surprises.

    They’ve told us all along is that Kara is the harbinger of death, and will lead humans to their end. She did exactly that. The PURE humans of the 12 colonies died out. 150,000 years later, all people living on our Earth are human-Cylon hybrids – Hera’s descendants.

    I was a bit disappointed that Kara didn’t have more resolution…but she turned out to be pretty much what they’ve hinted….no, not hinted – they said it outright. She was resurrected to fulfill her destiny, and then she was done. I could almost see her dissolve into dust and blow away like that Thomas Haden Church character on Spiderman 3. (That would probably be too much but it’s just what keeps coming to me as a more definitive end.)

    I would really like to have seen Leoben’s take on Kara’s fate; he was obsessed with her and her destiny, then scared of her when he thought he got it all wrong, and then it seems he was right after all but that didn’t get any closure.

    The vision of the opera house turned out to be pretty much exactly what was enacted in several episodes. I thought it was cute that even Caprica Six, on Earth later talking to the angels, pretty much said, “Um. That’s it?”

    Earth itself was also entirely expected (to me)…though they really threw us off for a while by implying that the other planet was our Earth, and even making the destryed city look vaguely like New York. In some ways it would have worked better if it tied in with the dawn of agriculture and civilization 10,000 years ago, rather than at the dawn of modern homo sapiens 150,000 years ago. But then the Mitochondrial Eve idea might not have worked.

    Bill and Lee each ending up totally alone was real heartbreaker. I’m not sure I get that part. Maybe Bill just wants to die in peace and has no intention of building any cabin. But Lee’s just going to wander alone forever?? Same for Tyrol I guess but it seemed more fitting for him, if no less sad.

    Inner Baltar and Inner Six…they’ve said all along that they were messengers from God. (But soes anyone have a good theory on why angel-Baltar said God didn’t like being called “God”? It felt like a literary allusion – maybe just to the old Hebrew unpronounceable name of God, but maybe to some more modern tale?) I didn’t really like angel Six and angel Baltar’s final dialogue. Their words and tone seemed really, really glib and sort of out of character for both (although both tended to be glib, this was something more cynical, and at the same time almost whimsical. Like they’re having a laugh.)

    I like the CONCEPT of the final news footage, but the silly robot prototypes seemed too obvious, too heavy handed. I think it should have been implied with some peek of an Aibo in a background advertisement or something. But again, it was pretty much “this will all happen again” on MSNBC. No surprise there.

  78. draven

    Here’s the one problem I have with the conclusion. You have roughly 39,000 living human survivors…you find a new planet…and your telling me the civilian leadership says, we’re running all our technology, medicine, star ships etc…into the sun and you can get back to basics…..no one complained….how about building a city and sending search parties back to the colonies, other survivors…really, you defeat the bad cylons, free the other cylons and yup lets get back to farming…..

  79. kimberly

    Jeff. Well said.

    I didn’t need to know all the answers. But I did need the series to end TRUE. To the characters, to the plot lines. And without the MANY uses of Deus Ex Machina. Most learn the dangers of using such trickery in Creative Writing 101.

    Very Very dissapointing. Hundreds of better endings. Shame on you Ron.

  80. Rob

    No, shame on you, kimberly and Jeff. Have you been watching the same show as the rest of us? Do you need a pop-up video version of the show to ‘asplain it all as it happens? To argue with individual resolutions of plot-lines is one thing, complaining about how your favorite character did or didn’t get the ending you think they deserved. But to, on such a huge scale, just not really get what the show was about, to not be willing to budge on what your pre-conceptions of such a thing should be, well, frankly it’s insulting. You don’t deserve to watch a show like this. It’s amazing that it got made, it’s amazing that it’s taken the risks it has, it’s amazing that it values the input of its actors and trusts in their understanding of their characters. It does all these extraordinary things that separate it from 98% of the shows out there, and you just want to poop on it in extended and self-serving fashion because it didn’t give you the ending you think you wanted. You have my eternal disgust for your disservice.

  81. Lucuis

    @ PortaPetey

    “Interesting how we are all rather surprised that the answers to some of the major mysteries turned out to be…exactly what they’ve been telling us they were all along! The biggest surprise was that there were no surprises. ”

    Yeah, they tied things up. As someone said it was an ending not a conclusion. And much of it left most of teh preceding series pointless. For instance Head 6 once tells Baltar it will all end at the “home of god” or something. Before the finale I thought teh blackhole was going to be special. Maybe now Earth is the home of god. They told us a lot but didnt follow thru.

    So Ok 6 is an angel as she said. But why did the Cylons believe in ONE TRUE GOD. How did they know of Gods plan. Why Kara was special etc. Why did much of what 6 said not come to pass. Baltar was supposed to be the leader and protector of Gods new Children. Maybe we can imagine that happened after the credits rolled. What was going on in the “place between life and death” that many of the characters experienced. Why keep Baltar alive and choose him above all humans to be god’s instrement. You can remove him from the story and it doesnt change any of the plot or the resolution. His character ended with no real purpose. All the head things said was we are done with you, your lives will be boring now. Bye. A more dramtioc ending would have been 6 and Baltar and Hera the only survivors and Baltar and 6 able to reproduce now they were truly “in love”. But then we never found out about why love mattered to Cylon reproduction

    The Opera House resolution was just incredibly worthless. They threw it in because they had too.

    Lets examine Kara. Ok fine she is an “Angel”. Was she given a choice to come back? Did she meet God or have any experiences in the “place between life and death”. In TOS, Starbuck makes a sacrifice to save the others. Had she not returned the plot would have still moved on like it did. But God just brought her back to enter coordinates that Hera or Sam could have. They didnt need her to find Earth, the final five new the way. There was no point in her jumping around following her feelings. Her ending could have been more poingent with her having to go back because her mission, her bargain with god had been completed.

    The reason there is anger is that with all the material at their disposal the writers just choose a cop-out of summing up every plot device as being the hand of some mysterious god or up to the viewer to decide.

  82. David

    Ok, i can see some VERY strong opinions on here, and since this’ll be waaaaay down the list, i hope at least 1 person will read it :)
    It’s gone for 4 years, 2 tv movies. it’s a long investiment of viewer time, so i can understand people ranting about it not finishing properly. I GET IT. but for anyone that hasn’t watched the 80′s series, if you forget, it ended in a very unexplained way too. no-one ever knew if starbuck and apollo survived the final mission (i’m ignoring the galactica 1980). it ended with a huge question, it had “god’s and angels” intervening. it wasn’t black and white. now i know the creators here wanted to make something unique, but they also kept some of the mistique. and congratualtions to them. i’ve enjoyed every minute of this Battlestar Galactica over the last 5 years and i want to thank them for giving us something other than your typical sci-fi. a truely enjoyable series

  83. David

    just to add. why do people almost always have such hostile feelings towards series ends. they’re inevitably going to disappoint. it’s the end and you want MORE. you want ALL the answers. but hey, then you have Star Wars Episode III and you feel cheated that you’re spoon fed the most obvious horrid stale connections to make the majority happy.
    complaining about the writing, plot holes, blah blah blah.

    in the end, no matter how good it’s been, IT’S ONLY A TV SHOW. get over it

  84. Joel

    I find it a bit surprising that many fail to see that the whole show was a big mishmash of all mythologies (especially Greek and Judeo-Christian, but including Hinduism and Buddhism too), everything about it is, from the names of the characters (cylons or humans) to most of the narratives that evolved through out the years, on the side of all the politics. The show was written by a Mormon and the original title when it was pitched in the late 60′s was Noah’s Ark! The Lords of Kobols is just an anagram for Kolob in Mormonism.

    Beyond all that… the death and resurrection of Kara. The whole search for the Promised Land. Common, no one associate her with Jesus and Moses (therefore, the whole “All Along The Watchtower” make sense).

    In the same way, Baltar is obviously Moses and Jesus too. Apostles and all… But he’s more Moses. He even grew a beard for a while to look a bit more like the image we have of Moses… and shaved it when he wanted to be Jesus again.

    The Angel of Death… please, let’s resume her/his role, since they both are intertwined. Early on, the show was way more Greek Mythos, but the last two seasons were definitely Judeo-Christian. Here’s what probably inspired the dual roles of Kara and Baltar, the Eros And Thanatos of the show, but we never know whom is who. Maybe the answer is that good and evil does not exist except in the religions themselves, in the minds of men. So they both are a little Harbinger of Life and Harbinger of Death. Most despised Baltar, despite his very human (too human) egotism. Everyone rooted for Kara, charming tomboy early on who never feared Thanatos… and evolved later on into a Eros. She is also Thrace, which is meaningful in the whole perspective of her as a great but unreliable fighter (just like the Thracians, whom loved the Knife too, alike the Angel of Death).

    So who is that Angel of Death, Baltar or Thrace or both?

    “When people lament and weep too much over the death of a person, the angel of death shall stand at the door and say: ‘What cause have you for such violent complaint? I am only the messenger of God and have done His bidding, and if you rebel against Him, I shall return often to take one of your house’”

    “When a righteous person dies, the angel of death comes with a host of good angels, carrying sweet odors of paradise, and makes the soul leave the body like a drop taken out of a bucket of water. When a wicked person dies, the angel of death comes in the company of demons, who pull the soul out as with iron spits”.

    Finally:

    “Give him back the knife, because the children of men have need of it”

  85. Joel

    Oh yes, another sidenote on Baltar… His name is “Baltar”… He is the Baal figure. His mythological side illuminate his monotheistic side.

    Baal/Hadad/Zeus/Jupiter, God of the rain and storms. God of gods, whatever.

    Then, what does Kara hear when nothing happen… Only the rain!

  86. PortaPetey

    Lucuis – I concur with all your questions, and I don’t have answers for most. I’d like more resolution on several issues, but others I can guess at or fill in myself. But I’d maintain that the endings were very much in line with what the producers told us along, in most cases.

    Your question about the home of god is interesting. Perhaps our Earth, with it’s oh-so-coincidentally DNA-matching humans, is the original human planet from which all human life in the universe arose? Or is god’s new chosen home, where “he” created compatible beings?

    Regarding the Cylon knowledge of the one true god and the place between life and death…I feel that they’ve fairly strongly suggested that there’s something in the design of the Cylon Hybrid that allows them to (inadvertantly?) tap into sort of a collective or primordial consciousness on an ongoing basis. Cavil and the Threes seemed to know this, and they get glmpses of it when resurrecting, and that’s why they were so frustrated with the limitations of the human perception and intelligence they were given. They wanted to be able to tap into the Universe too. (But then why couldn’t they just become Hybrids like Anders did?)

    Remember Inner Six was not a Cylon, so her knowlege of God’s plan doesn’t need to be explained in the same way as if she was.

    Onto the opera house; I agree, we didn’t learn any secret about any actual opera house. I’m just assuming that when this all happened on Kobol 3000 years before, the CIC scene with Hera happened in an opera house, and the visions tapped into a tribal memory of that. And maybe it will happen in an opera house again on Earth if it turns out that Inner Six is wrong about things being different this time, since humans in our present aren’t really a spacefaring people and so our battle with robots might happen on land.

    I think Kara’s end was fairly empty. The show’s always been bleak that way, but it would be nice if there was some exposition as to whether she actually “remembered” some commune with god and this allowed her to come to resolution and “go back”. I think we are just left to assume just exactly what you are suggesting.

    Finally, the one point I agree with you on 100% is that Baltar’s arc seemed pretty pointless. All of this could have happened without him. And without Caprica Six for that matter. Again, Caprica herself acknowledged this when she said “Huh??? That’s all???”

    I suppose Baltar and Caprica probably did reproduce,a s I’m sure many of the other survivors did. But all of their descendants either died out or mixed with Hera’s descendants, and there are no more pure humans. So Kara really did lead humanity to it’s end. It’s just not as bad as it sounded coming from the Hybrids!

  87. Joel

    “I think Kara’s end was fairly empty”

    Just to add to her Thrace side noted above… Kara is from Norse mythology… and it sort of self-fulfill her role as a Valkyrie. Read on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1ra

    Baltar, Baal, god of storms.
    Kara, the wild stormy one.

  88. So Sad

    I agree with Jeff, the final episode left MANY questions unanswered. It seems to me that us ardent fans spent more time trying to piece together all of the divergent plot lines than the writers did. They always said there was a clear “beginning, middle and and end” which led me to assume that they had a clear resolution planned for most of the questions since the beginning. But apparently not. Ron said in the pre-show said that he hit a block after the battle at the colony and that he resolved the block by deciding to focus on the characters, not the plot. Yes, the characters are important, but the finale has to resolve the plot. You can focus on character archs all you want in regular episodes but in the finale, you have to tie things together.

    Here’s some other plot lines (in addition to those already mentioned here) that I felt were unresolved:

    1. The temple of five. The temple was supposed to be built for the “unnamed” god, presumably by the 13th colony on their way to the first earth (again this is me filling in a story where the writers left it hanging), since Ellen clearly says that they did not build it and that they visited it on their way back to the 12 colonies. And who set it up so that when the right person stands in the right spot during a super nova they see the faces of the final five (who did not exist at the time when the temple was built). The temple could have been used to link the “unnamed god” from Kobol, with the agent behind the head characters. But it wasn’t. It was just ignored. I guess the answer is again, “God did it”. IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

    2. How did their culture seed our culture when they came to our Earth SO far back in time. They landed here 150,000 years ago, but ancient Greece was less than 3000 years ago. How did we end up with their gods, and not just in name but in story too. And even worse, how did we end up with a modern culture that so closely resembles theirs? How did we end up speaking english, just like them. They could not possibly have taught it to us, because english as a language evolved organically out of other dialects, like the Germanic languages, and even English itself has changed over time. And for the picky, there are other similarities to our culture: They wear suits and ties; They use a 24 hour clock with our numerals (even though they came from 12 distinct planets which would have had different lengths of days); they have the same animals as us, like cats and dogs, which we know have themselves evovled on our planet and were not just brought here in their modern form. (And I’m not even mentioning “All along the Watchtower”). That “God did it” is a cop out, but so is this “collective unconsciousness” thing. Knowledge does not spread through the collective unconsciousness. It is passed down from generation to generation
    and like us, it evolves over time. Knowledge does not come and go. Humans could not possibly have learned English, for example, as their first language (taught by the Galactica crew etc.), and then forgot English and went to less complex language systems, and then miraculously learn it again in the same form as before hundreds of thousands of years later. Even Carl Jung didn’t think the collective unconscious works this way. IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

    Also, there is no way that they got rid of every bit of modern tech when they landed on Earth, so that we could not find a peice of smelted metal alongside pre-historic bones. IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

    In order to resolve all of these problems, the story line has to be written the other way around. They would have needed to come from our modern culture. Some offshoot of humans or cylons must have left earth with our myths and legends and culture, and these must have seeded their culture, not the other way around.

    3. How the final five work. We know Tigh knew Adama as a young man so presumably when Cavill put him on earth he was resurected without his memories, as a young man. Then when Ellen dies she is resurected as an older woman. Can they set themselves to come back at any age? Also, Tyrol was supposed to have had a famous preacher father. He was drawn to the Temple of Five because of the lessons and prophesies he learned as a child from his father. But if he is a cylon, his father did not exist. This is problematic for 2 reasons. First, it is one thing to create a backstory of 2 dead nobody parents like Boomers. It is another thing to create a famous father who had a congregation and followers. You would think Tyrol or one of Tyrol’s human friends would have noticed that no one had heard of his father or his sect. Second, if those memories are not real, why did Cavill put them there? Because, as it turns out, it was important that he have them for when he got to the temple. Or did God do it again?

    4. So nothing happened in an opera house on Kobol? Even though Baltar first saw the opera house vision while standing on Kobol in the same spot as the real opera house once stood – it was just a metaphor? It was just so that those five characters were in the right place at the right time, to do … what?… for what reason? As pointed out by Jeff, nothing would have turned out much different if this did not happen. IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

    5. So are we supposed to think that the “one true god” who doesn’t like to be called a god, somehow, for some reason seeded the polytheistic religion of the 12 colonies with prophesies which would lead humanity along this path from way back when Pythia was written and the arrow of Apollo was created in such a way as to open a portal on Kobol to show the constellations of earth. Which earth? Our earth I think. I think they saw the stars in our sky didn’t they? Again this only makes sense if the people on Kobol had come from our earth. But apparently they didn’t. So again, the answer is, God did it. For some reason instead of converting the residents of Kobol to monotheism, God used their polytheistic religion to create prophesies and technologies, all to show humans 2000 years later how to follow a specific path. (And how did the cylons get their god and how does it work into it all – remember Ellen said the centurians already had a monotheistic god when they met). IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

    These are just a few of the other plot lines that did not make sense because of the finale. The others have already been mentioned on this forumn (All the plot lines surrounding Kara Thrace, Hera, Daniel, Kara’s dad, Cavill’s suicide, etc. also left me hanging). It seems to me that the writers failed to make a list of all the outstanding plot points in order to try and tie them together. It is SO SAD becasue I love BSG and I feel like the series was kind of ruined by the lack of resolution. You just can’t foreshadow all kinds of things and then ignore them in the end. Yes, you can put red-herrings in your script, but the actual resolution has to be more satisfying, not less satisfying, than the theories that went with the red-herrings. All in all I am only as disappointed as I am because the rest of the show was so brilliant. So Sad.

  89. Ted P

    Ok- I must add for a 40 year old man to give up his Friday nights for the last few seasons, I was terribly disturbed by this whole final season. The finale just left me yelling at the TV, and left my wife staring a me slightly confused.
    I agree with the majority on here that the “starting” over without the fleet, or a majority of their technology seemed a little ridiculous. I mean, did not a base star full of Cylon Centurions, just leave them? No idea if they plan on coming back? Are we sure all the bad Cylons are dead? I would have maybe brought this up at the first new Town Meeting.
    And splitting up all the human survivors all over the planet? Seems a little silly to start splitting up the people now. I guess the Australian outback looks appealing to you you just spent 4 years on a spaceship, but I think I would be a little intimidated by the nasty critters roaming around. Single guy in the Highlands? Right.

    Was it just me, or did they seem to go overboard on the special effects and sacrifice the actual writing? I mean space battles with hundreds of tiny fighters zipping around just seem to be so popular now. I mean how did they manage to keep infinite amounts of fuel, ammo, fighters and pilots around for all this time? And could there been a little fewer Cylons skin jobs? I mean come on– everywhere you looked there they were. Sharon- Boomer-Athena- May Ling or whatever they were named– I lost track.

    My wife tried to sit through many episodes with me. I at first got tired explaining the whole story. Then I just got so confused myself, I just stopped entirely and suggested she stop watching. She though I just watched to see Kara walk around in tight shirts, and Six walking around in sexy dresses. I admit it, I would have done her.

    Anyways, as a fan from 1978 watching the very first movie, rooting for Commander Cain and the Pegasus to wipe out the two base ships, and hoping the original Baltar would once fall from the really high chair he used to sit on, I felt like my love of the series was stripped away from me. I dealt with Starbuck and Boomer changing genders. Tigh was now a cranky bald white dude instead of the suave colored guy. (and then a Cylon aargh)
    The pleasant hum of a Centurions red light- the popcorn popper headed assistant to Baltar who sounded like Dr. Smith ( sorry I forget his name)…. call 911…please…you have stolen my memories. Then stabbed me in the back with last nights finale. The only one who clapped was my wife —- cause it was finally over. Now we can go out again on Fridays.

  90. It seems to me there’s a difference between Deus ex machina and requiring from the writers an ending that comports completely with one’s own worldview. Deus ex machina is “an active agent that appears unexpectedly to solve an insoluable difficulty.”

    Hating an ending that doesn’t fit into your worldview because it doesn’t fit into your worldview is intolerant and cynical.

    Which category do you fall into? Draw your own conclusions.

    Me personally, I don’t see how the existence of an intelligent higher power (which was implied by Head Baltar to not be a god in the religious sense, but perhaps a higher power in the panspermic sense) was unexpected, since the theme of intelligently guided destiny that you guys are railing against has been alluded to all the way back to Season 1. If you really are complaining about deus ex machina, then how did you not see this ending as a possibility? I don’t really see how you could miss it. So it appears that at least some of you really don’t hate the finale because you thought the writers used deus ex machina, but because of the finale’s implications.

    Others of you are also writing Christian mythology (or at least what you perceive it to be) into the mythology of the series where it doesn’t exist.

    “after she was forced to die by God’s loving hand because the end-justifies-the-means”

    Please be careful not to do that. It just ruins it for you.

  91. Bill C.

    I feel really bad for the folks who were disappointed by the finale, but I must say I’m not surprised to see the common thread between all of those posts is the vitriolic anti-religious sentiment oozing out of them.
    No amount of explaining or persuading will convince those people that the ending was good because to believe in that is to accept religion as valid… and they cannot do that, not even for the sake of argument about a completely fictitious religion.

    I LOVED the finale, and although I’m a spiritual person, spirituality has nothing to do with it.

    What I loved about it is that all of the explanations tied back into the mythology of the original series. Specifically the “beings of light”. Its funny that all of these anti-religious types automatically jump to the “God” explanation and cry “Foul!” when a more obvious and classic Sci-Fi device is just as valid.
    “God”, the “Plan”, and the “Angels” could just as easily be aspects of a highly evolved, highly advanced alien race; along the lines of the Vorlons from Babylon-5, or the Q from StarTrek: TNG…
    Sure if you are religious, its natural to accept the religious explanation… and it seems to me that if you aren’t it would be natural to go with the advanced alien explanation… but for anti-religious people to instantly jump to, and rail against religion says a lot more about them than it does about the show; and like I said at the beginning, I feel bad for those people.

    Thanks RDM and all who helped make BSG the “Best Frakkin’ Show On Televison”. :)

  92. Jenth101

    @ Jeff 3:27 a.m.
    Thanks for putting it into words what I was feeling so perfectly. I was aghast at the ending thinking only: Deus Ex Machina. And as others pointed out, Deus Ex Machina many times and in several layers. Moore, in fact, as much as stated in the special that he and the writers were sweating the details of the plot and had an epiphany (wish there was an antonym for the word) that it was the characters, not the plot that mattered. Too bad they failed there also.

    @ Vladimir 5:50 am
    True; They most likely would not have been able to maintain their very highest technology. But to completely scuttle all that metal? If they are going to hunt and farm, they are going to need axes, hoes, saws, hammers, etc. And yeah, I agree, the recon scene was priceless.

  93. PortaPetey

    Joel – thanks for the many interesting links to world mythologies. The Greek / Roman and Judeo / Christian parts with moses and Jesus were obvious but you’re bringing some new suggestions to the table that are very worth considering.

    I thought of another big question that could have implications on the new Earth. Just what is the longevity of the final Three (now that Tory and Sam are gone), or for that matter of the remaining Cylons? Do they have normal human life spans? Or are they more or less immortal until killed by trauma? I’m not sure we ever got a really clear explanation of just how the Final Five, after resurrecting once, traversed the time from the first Earth’s destruction to the 12 Colonies-Cylon war. Maybe they just kept resurrecting all those two thousand years?

    They travelled at less than light speed, so I’m not sure how much relativistic “time-compression” they would have benefited from…maybe they can survive thousands of years?

    Maybe Tyrol stuck around for eons until people came to Scotland and he founded the Gaels with them? Total speculation here but it’s fun to think about.

    Having said all that, maybe they existed even before the Kobol war. Maybe they’re the common thread through all of the cycle forever and on…

    I do think there’s more to “our” Earth in that the Kobol crew probably came from here in some previous cycle, and that’s how they knew to look for the right constellations. Remember this is supposed to have happened over and over and over already. There may be a “big cycle” that lasts hundreds of thousands of years (Our Earth to Kobol to Colonies and Other Earth, and back) and back), and a “small cycle” that repeats many of the same themes on a smaller scale within it.

    Anyway just some random thoughts.

  94. Matt

    @Jeff #2

    As others have said, the ending is really up for interpretation, not for the writers to layout easily for the viewers. It’s supposed to be something that you have to think about, and really draw out your own personal conclusions for the matters. With that said, there is nothing wrong with how flawed you see the ending to be, it’s not a negative thing. It’s constructive criticism and gets people like myself to think even harder on our own ideas making them that much more in depth. I plan to watch the finale and the entire 4 seasons + all extras (miniseries, razor, webisodes, ect) many times through, and like a good poem new conclusions shall be drawn. That’s why the ending is so well done, because people have made many different views of each small detail. It’s also a great ending because it keeps you thinking about it after it’s done.

    Aside from this, I do in fact have a couple of things that I feel Ron could have done a lot better. My number one issue with the finale was Lee’s ending. It felt so incredibly rushed and random. Suddenly he begins speaking about his thirst to want to explore the land, but that’s not who he is at all. His character arc has never wanted to run off and explore, where did this come from?

    Secondly, I have a very hard time believing the entire fleet would have been able to simply agree to give up everything and go live down on dream earth with no tools, supplies, anything. The explanation Ron gives for us is that the desire for a clean slate should never be underestimated, but neither should peoples needs for medicines, commodities, ect. I think more time should have been spent on this.

    Thirdly, Adama’s goodbye to Lee was completely counter intuitive. The entire series, ever since S01E01, we have seen the “father who’s never there and doesn’t care about his children” character along with the “son who wont forgive his father and love him character” slowly become characters who have changed their connection into a strengthened and bonded one. Why is it then that at the very end we go right back to the “father who’s never there and doesn’t care about his children” character? It doesn’t make any sense, just a hug and goodbye like that? A lot more time was needed here as well.

    All in all, it appeared to me that Ron was trying to fit so very much into such a small amount of time, and had he been given 2 more hours everything would have appeared much more cleaner. I don’t think that’s what he was going for however, and although initially from my perspective everything happened way too quickly, now that I have the chance to think about it as a whole and less of just a finale it does itself justice (minus my issues above which I need counter-argued so I may better understand them). :)

    Cheers

    Oh P.S., I think far too many of you are still thinking of Kara as Kara-BEFORE SHE DIED Kara. The Kara we have at the end of the show is someone else completely, she did not love Lee, she was another being all together. Because of this her ending was fitting of what she was ever since she magically appeared with a new viper S04E01, a spirit on a mission.

  95. Joel

    “Others of you are also writing Christian mythology”

    I wonder how you can not see that Kara Thrace is implied as Jesus and Moses.

    Unless you will only accept the Greek or Norse Mythos… Then again, to me, all religions are the same thing (the freemasons see it that way, assimilating all mythology into one continual storyline explained differently). The 12 colonies are the symbols of the astrology. All religions use them. But they are a very earthly thing.

    So, is it Pagan or not… It’s a bit of both. Kara Thrace is obviously a blasphemous version of Jesus (she’s a woman and a warrior, more Roman Soldier than persecuted Christ). Ron Moore did say that she embody a sort of Jesus Christ.

    That’s not all she is of course… She’s also a Valkyrie and a Thracian mercenary. Like most other main characters, she’s more than one thing. She evolved in many different incarnations since season 1. Remember she was a tomboy… but returned a fragile, thin-haired lady… out to show the way to the Promised Land.

    Kára in Norse mythology is a reincarnation of Sigrún, who was reborn from Sváfa. So you can read it either ways… Jesus or only Norse Valkyrie, reborn, reincarnated, resurrected, as you wish.

  96. So Sad

    PortaPetey said: ” I do think there’s more to “our” Earth in that the Kobol crew probably came from here in some previous cycle, and that’s how they knew to look for the right constellations. Remember this is supposed to have happened over and over and over already. There may be a “big cycle” that lasts hundreds of thousands of years (Our Earth to Kobol to Colonies and Other Earth, and back) and back), and a “small cycle” that repeats many of the same themes on a smaller scale within it.”

    I had thought about this explanation too, thinking that the humans that the crew encountered were devolved humans after the cataclysm of our own culture or something. But it doesn’t work. It ignores everything we know about the archeology of our own planet and the evolution of everything on it. We know about the five great extinctions and what was on this planet at the time. We would know if there had been a civilization of humans on this planet before us. Unless they had magic like powers or tech which allowed them to erase every trace of their existence. Which goes too far.

  97. Matt

    …”a spirit on a mission”. And Kara finally understood this herself, for the first time since she’d been back she knew what she was and what her purpose was.

  98. Mark

    At least this series had an ending! After the massive disappointments with so many recent series (Deadwood, etc) it was comforting to look forward to a genuine finale. I think the producers did a good job of filling in the ‘missing’ pieces – most were fairly obvious – especially the “this has happened before, will happen again’ refrain throughout the entire show. Of course, this was the ending it had to have. The jump to 150K years later was a tad too cute – like we wouldn’t make the connection on own own? I think many comments are too hung up on contemporary religious interpretations. Personally, I think you get more from the show by seeing how the writers make use of our much more interesting ancient religions (godsdam).
    Loved the liberal dose of Greek mythology – Hera (start of the goddess culture), the decision to locate to the moutains (olympus). Apollo (god of colonisation)goes off to travel. ETC..
    Overall, loved the drama, the characters and the red herrings. It will make the rewatching of all the dvds even more interesting.

    Kara was the harbinger of death – for the cylons that remained at the colony. She was told this by only cylons throughout.

  99. PortaPetey

    @ So Sad

    I hear you, but I believe that since our planet has existed for 4 billion years, there may have been some pretty hefty cataclysms millions and millions of years ago, even before the dinosaur era, that wiped out ALL LIFE several times already, as well as any archaeological trace of life, and creation began anew.

    In my little speculation, the humans that the Galacticans find are brand spankin’ new humans, not remnants from a previous. It’s just not the first time life evolved on Earth.

    I’m not saying it’s possible in the real world – our geological knowledge and the fossil record may stretch back 3.5 billion years and rule this out – but that it might make a good fiction.

  100. Johnson

    Have you ever taken the plastic shell off of a golf ball? There’s a bunch of rubber bands underneath. Take a knife to the outer layer, toss it up in the air and watch it fall apart. That’s pretty much what they did- peeled the shell off for the entire fourth season so we could see that there was a ball of interconnected threads and then just let it fall apart. So many of the dramatic elements that we had been led to believe carried meaning beyond that episode and that moment simply fell flat on their face (the prophecies surrounding Roslin and the “dying leader”, the “harbinger of death” bit with Kara). Instead they gave in to their overindulgent ideas of grand, epic storytelling. Frak technology, plot a course for the goddamn sun and let’s all be farmers. Oh, and God did it, that big jerk. What’s Starbuck? How did she come back? Is she an angel? Are we going to get any actual resolution to her character? Why was she seeing visions of her father when she in fact was a vision herself? How about you decide! And in the end, it was nutjob Gaius frakking Baltar that was right about everything! Cop-out. Disappointing cop-out.

    The fact that the episode was well filmed and scripted enough to make me overlook this until the very end when I stopped to think back is testimony to the sheer genius of the writers. Keeping you wrapped up in the dramatic tension of the moment is enough to keep my mind off those niggling questions, but in the end it all comes washing back to leave a bitter aftertaste.

    Props for the giant Mexican stand-off that led to Cavil’s end, and the entire scene in the black hole’s orbit was pretty damn cool, although Racetrack’s untimely demise and the unlikely result kind of screamed “I’m a plot device!”

    A giant “booooo” to the unfitting death of the Galactica. It should have broken in half after the jump, especially if they were going to launch it into the sun anyway. Though hearing the theme music to BSG1978 as Adama took the last Viper off was kind of cool.

    Maybe a second viewing will change my mind. Of the series, not just the last episode. It really has to be taken as a whole.

  101. Petar

    I have a strange question: the space ship is called “the Raptor”. Now, this could be some random word translated from “Galactica Universe English”, but if not – does that mean they had dinos too? Nobody ever mentioned them on the show, ever (then again, they didn’t really talk about colonial flora and fauna in general).

  102. Joel

    Yes, Petar, one cannot really equate “Raptor” with Velociraptor.

    Raptor may come from the latin-word “Raptus”
    It may more likely derive from Rapture.

    Not really related to the dinosaur.

  103. Johnson

    @ Joel:

    Explain Vipers, then, or the Blackbird.

    No deep explanation required for naming military craft after predators, especially if you explain them as mythological creatures.

  104. Mike

    Its all very simple.

    They simply did not have a story when they started. They started a series where they told us that this was an epic with a planned ending, and it was all a lie. They strung together “cool stuff”, congratulated themselves on being great writers and film makers, and laughed all the way to the bank.

    Anyone trying to explain what we saw, as though the negative reaction just means we didn’t understand what the fabulous writers were doing, is just being pathetic.

  105. Atheist

    @MoTk: “Yeah, atheists are going to hate the finale…”

    Well, I’m an atheist and loved it.
    Did you happen to miss the 150,000 years in the future line from Head Six: “He really hates that name” when Head Baltar mentions “God”.

    If there was a personified entity behind driving the actions of the characters in the BSGverse, it wasn’t a supernatural one.

  106. Joel

    Good point Johnson, I was off on this one.

    Still, the latin etymology does say something about it.

    Raptor is a bird of prey.
    The meaning of the verb rapiō is : snatch, grab, carry off

    The English descendants of the verb is: rape, raptor, rapture.

    But you are right, all of it is mythological indeed.

  107. kimlee

    Great Episode…but just till it finished.
    When you start to think about it 2 minutes later…it doesn’t work at all.
    Too many things put inside with no sense and explanations.

    Kara thrace…if she’s an angel came back for her mission after she got in the Nebula, why her body found in the Earth N. 1 is 2000 years old?

    All the Opera House vision…if the message was simply that to survive human and cylons as to be together, why there were Baltar and Caprica?This is something I really never understood…Helo and Athena weren’t enough?

    Back to the 2 season… if the new cylons model love the resurrection technology,why they were hardly trying to make it biologically as we seen in the farms?

  108. Jamaal

    Thank you, Jeff.

    I’m so happy this series is over, because I can stop watching it and hoping that something will be salvaged from that first season that made me so happy. The first episode was the best episode of anything I had ever seen on television, and the last episode made me want to put on a random Law & Order rerun and read recaps on the web.

    This series started to die very early on, when they decided to make the entire human race a fascist dictatorship run by a man and his son, in discussion with a constantly hallucinating woman who declared herself savior. I say “started,” because the dynamic that this created with the civilians started off in an interesting manner, and I both feared and was titillated by the possibility that the new Galactica might be an extended argument for fascism during times of crisis. Pro Bush Sci-Fi that wasn’t idiotic… it would be horribly misguided, but maybe it would make me think.

    No such luck. Following the prophesies of hallucinating self-proclaimed savior turned out to be neither a statement on having to believe in something to keep the group together nor actually the right thing to do based on a greater story that we were unaware of. It was just scriptwanking, with no thought as to what would come next. How about living under the absolute rule of a noble, alcoholic, more emotionally unstable by the episode, father figure Admiral, except when he decided to delegate it to his son, or the woman his other son used to sleep with? Equally meaningless – even though it was bathed in the blood of every civilian revolt that had to be put down every six or seven episodes. Even sadder, none of this blood even engendered any loyalty in Adama, who attempted to drift into space to die, or to drink himself to death whenever there was any setback in his personal life – anything but allow his absolute authority be questioned.

    Since that fascism in the way the government ran turned out to be unjustified on any level, and there never turned out to be any reason to trust either the President(for life)’s, the Admiral’s, or the Admiral’s son’s decisionmaking skills, the writers solved the problem by contracting the show into a tiny claustrophobic bubble around those main characters; the magical ones, the ones with the absolute unquestionable authority, and the people that they slept with. The rest of the fleet were reduced to yammering cardboard obstacles to be eliminated or enslaved based on the dynamics of the sexual relationships and whims of the core. The reason the series became so empty is because humanity had ceased to exist, and we were left with the sexing and arguing of a very small number of people as our only vehicle for metaphor. I really tried to see myself, or my community, or the human situation in the whining, screwing, and bickering in this tiny little group, but I would have had as much luck watching All My Children.

    I guess that the answer is that there’s a very small core of overwhelmingly white people who do everything important in the world, but not guided by reason, just their whims, jealousies, and hallucinatory spirit walks. Also, that this group doesn’t include any brown males, only a couple of emotionally unstable brown females to pass the time while the white males are estranged from their true loves – destined to either shoot themselves or be strangled to death for being in the way of, or killing for the safety of the group, their mate’s true loves. At least they kept the Asian chick around. White guys always keep the Asian chicks around, especially the ones that would betray their entire race to sleep with them (of course, in this series every Asian chick really did look the same, so any of them would do – explicitly, a couple episodes ago.)

    A large number of these characters (Gaeta, Boomer, Callie, Dualla, etc.) existed simply to be abused and tossed around by the other characters, with the help of the screenwriters who declined to give them much of a core personallity, and made the tiny bit that was necessary for the sexual dramas that they were extras in either shrill, pathetic, or random in the service of some plotline. The only reason we remember, or care, about any of them was due to the massive talent in the cast, and their ability to sell motivations that were often on the verge of parody.

    Of all of the characters, the one that was done the worst disservice was Lee, who was a magical Buck Rogers stereotype for the beginning of the series, and at some point it seemed like the writers noticed that this was making their series just like every other star-driven series, so they ground the character into the dirt with their heel. When he wasn’t simply having turds thrown at him, he played the sucker for every character that had a plan, and believed in every cause in earnest. After they got bored with that (probably because they had put him on every side possible) they left him to stumble through the rest of the series playing the role of the guy who spoke for the people, and periodically cried. At least it was a role that somebody needed to play, because the populace had all disappeared a season ago, and been replaced with twelve extras sitting around a table while “Loud argument at public meeting (American)” from the BBC sound effects library played. Then they were interrupted and told how things would be, or they were machinegunned down.

    I remember listening to a cast roundtable podcast during the period that the writers were dragging Lee through the mud, and listening to Jamie Bamber talk about his character and the plot. He seemed confused, but optimistic, and talked about the direction he saw it going in. The series would have been much better off had they fired RDM and put him on as writer.

    I’m going to back away from the keyboard now, but all I can say about this series at its conclusion is: “It really started off amazingly.”

    P.S.: since when did being religious mean that there didn’t have to be a reason or an explanation for anything? Every Holy Book I’ve read seems to explain every reason for every thing. Whether you accept them is up to you, but at least they _intend_ to be internally consistent.

  109. Knives

    Beautiful ending, better then i ever imagined. me and all my friends loved it. Simply put, for those who think it was lame, you need to sit and think about the ending more.

  110. Mr. Z

    Lest we forget, this is a television series. And as that, the quality of this finale was superb. My hats off to everyone behind the production not only of this finale but the entire series. As far as storytelling is concerned, I too must admit to some disappointment. The who Kara disappearing just seemed really strange at the time. I did not get it at all and did not really understand more until I read the interview above. I can accept to some degree the whole, “let the audience figure it out” notion, but this one particular area of the episode was just plain weak. Personally I also don’t think these folks go have given up the technology they had, good or bad. After all, they are humans. Humans are inherently cursed everyday with decisions to do right or wrong. Technology in this instance, and with the robot montage at the end is painted as being a “wrong”. That may or may not be true, but based upon mans pursuit and acceptance of technology throughout it existence, giving it up across 39,000 human beings does not seem to be realistic. Heck, even the rudimentary tools of the humans found on new earth are a technology of that age. Did the BSG humans ask those humans to give up their technology?

    I have to say that despite the things mentioned here and a few more smaller things I did not go into, I did feel satisfied with ending. After it, it is just television.

  111. Sarah

    @Jamaal: Seriously, mate, why did you bother to watch the show till the very end if you think it died back in S1? Why bother??? Don’t get ppl like you…

    I loved the final. Sure. It had plot holes. I personally didn’t like Kara to vanish, but just because it would leave Lee alone. And I always assumed RDM is pulling a prank on us with Nuked!Earth. But overall, I loved it. Think of it… It was just a tv show. A frakking great one, the best one we’ve come to see in the last couple of years. But still, just a tv show. Don’t get too critical and cut TPTB some slacks. They did great overall.

    I loved the final. Period.

  112. Tom

    The “old earth” that was destroyed was NOT our world. The folks in the show are our ancestors.

    The “dying leader” could either be Galactica itself, or Roslin.

  113. graybeard

    I saw some of the old style cylons fighting on the colony. I thought the cylons said they had never seen that model before when they found them on earth?

  114. Jamaal

    @Sarah

    Because the first season was that good. Then the second season was alright, but I didn’t like the end. Then, in the beginning of the third season, I decided that maybe I had been wrong about the end of the second season. As it progressed, nothing worthwhile ever happened again, plotwise.

    The acting was excellent, though. And the space porn was really great sometimes. But to compare the last couple seasons of this show to, for example, the third and fourth season of the Wire, makes BSG look like an amateurish joke.

  115. Danny

    So I wonder what the next episode is going to be about…

  116. Cimone

    ROOTS

    After reading all of these posts, I am surprised that nobody has taken the show back to its beginnings to help explain why it ended in the way it has. Battlestar posed its own question in the opening mini series. Adama essentially asked: Does humanity deserve to survive? The entire series, I believe, is instrinsically tied to posing an answer to this question or at least generating the space to explore an answer. This exploration served as the driving force behind revealing the strengths and weakneses of humanity; demonstrated the similarities between clashing civilizations; the futility of enduring conflict; and the hypocrices of individual characters that made them accessible and sometimes, albeit uncomfortably, reminded us of ourselves. This is especially true of Baltar

    There are debates above about the Opera House and its importance. I believe the signifiance of the Opera House links all the way back to the first episode and Adama’s Question. BSG’s clash of civilizations…the driving force behind the shows exodus…begins and ends with Baltar. He starts off representing all of humanity that is not worth saving. He is weak willed. He is arrogant. He is a liar. He is cowardly. He is selfish. Everybody loves to hate him because they are remind of what is the worst in all of us. He is the cause of the destruction of the 12 colonies. He is blamed for the occupation. Laura wants to kill him when he confesses his role in humanity’s destruction. What is the Opera House? It’s the not just precursor moment leading to our arrival on Earth or where Hera is just taken out of the line of fire…its the moment where we earn the right to go to Earth…it’s where Adama’s question is answered…it’s where the start of the cycle is ended…by the one who started it…Baltar. We answer Adama’s question…do we deserve to survive by showing that we can change; can be redeemed and, as Lee puts it, bring to Earth the best of ourselves as Baltar finally faces his fear and for a crucial moment, stops Cavil to save humanity. We deserve to survive because we can change. Baltar’s story arc is ultimately representing humanity itself. Being humbled and broken…reformed…to a farmer…a role once despised in pride…humanity enters the promised land being allowed to start over. “Clean slate” as Adama says. I admit there are a lot of other loose ends…but if RDM says the show went back to focus on the characters rather than the plot…I think the end was fitting even while the story took an almost metaphorical turn upon discovering Earth 2.

    At the end of the show I feet…well…sad. I am going to miss all the characters.

    @ Madame President, Porta Pete and Matt…. I echo comments about how the loss of community was so evident and the dissolution of the relationships. I don’t know if all of this was necessary but it would seem to make sense if there was supposed to be room for our civilization. If they had established a city with technology, our civilization would have never formed. I felt an eerie sense of emptyness particuarly with Lee’s ending. However, his last act was a critical one. His decision to leave room for the future civilization was ultimately a final break in the repeating cycle. Rather than 2000 years for the last repeat we have seen 150 000 go by with no human cylcon war. I just wish he reconnected with his dad…I found that quite jarring. However, it has been noted from those above that the point of the story was the journey. The irony was that as we chased the “dream” of Earth we lost the things that really brought us a sense of home…our relationships with one another. As Adama looses his place as a Battlestar Commander and his love…and Lee loses Kara…that becomes painfully clear. Perhaps a message to us as we chase the “dream” of home.

    The last point I had was a question of my own. Did the Arrow of Apollo not reveal Earth’s (Our Earth’s) Constellations? And didn’t Gateta say when they found Earth 1 that the star constellations were confirmed from that map? Wasn’t that the whole point to the first season and half to find that arrow so that when they arrived at Earth they could confirm that it was indeed the correct planet? I feel like there was a slip in the plot here to allow a “second” earth for the finale but in doing so eliminating the point of the entire Arrow of Apollo story line.

    Thanks all for sharing and writing. In light of the show’s end, I have found this quite therapeutic.

    Cheers!

  117. Beejag

    Call me crazy, but I’ve had this theory since viewing the finale, and if you will all just follow me briefly, maybe this will make sense,

    Now, there was a trailer for Caprica, which aired during the Finale, and if I’m not mistaken, followed a character by the name of Daniel, and his attempts to create a machine to recreate his dead daughter(s). Now, call me crazy, but wouldn’t it make since that, given the fact that Daniel is the name of the final boxed or ‘aborted’ cylon model, that perhaps this will tie everything together.

    If Daniel did in fact escape somehow, and arrive on Caprica, it is entirely possible that he in fact gave rise to whatever the hell “Head Six and Head Baltar” are, and the reincarnated Kara as well. In the trailer, it appears that he is a genius beyond anyone else in the Galactica universe, so it wouldn’t be totally out of the question to suspect he perhaps was this so called greater power at work.

    What really got me thinking about this idea was the last scene of the finale, where Head Six and Baltar discussed their ‘benefactor’ or leader, ending with Six calling him God and Baltar mentioning how “he doesn’t liked to be called that”. Although RDM did state above that it was a rabbit hole, he only said this in reference to Daniel being her biological father, and nothing else, clearly avoiding the question of what actually happened to him.

    All in all, its a crackpot theory to be sure, but hey, it does seem to work, and heres hoping Caprica can be more than simply ‘more Galactica’, and actually add something to the universe.

    Overall, I enjoyed the finale, but somehow felt the over the top religious ending didn’t really mix well with how everything had been portrayed previously. Still, the mass bloodbath in the control room followed by the warheads being launched was an incredible moment. 8/10

  118. Rob

    Mike says, “Anyone trying to explain what we saw, as though the negative reaction just means we didn’t understand what the fabulous writers were doing, is just being pathetic.”

    No, I’m pretty sure it just means that you don’t understand symbolism or metaphor and need it all spoon-fed to you. One of your fellow detractors said it best when they said they wanted to just go watch episodes of Law and Order. Yeah, a series where the status quo never really changes and everything is all wrapped up very neatly at the end of each episode. Foreign movies probably just make you all go, “Whuh?!” too. Maybe reality tv is more your forte? I hear it’s fairly low on allegory.

  119. justanotheropinion

    As an atheist, yes, I thought it was a interesting work of speculative fiction/science fiction/fantasy….just like the bible. yeah, I piss off a lot of people when I say that, but that’s my perception of both.

  120. So Sad

    There was a part of the show that was akin to a murder mystery, like an Agatha Christie or Sherlock Holmes maybe. I felt like we were given clues through to whole thing which I expected to lead to a well-reasoned conclusion, something like when Poirot gets everyone in the room together and explains who did it and why. Instead, we got something more like “it was this guy who did it, who was not in the rest of the episode and who had no motive.” Or maybe like, “it was god’s will that the character die, so why do we need to know who was the instrument of god’s will or the why?”

    It has less to do with atheism vs faith and more to do with not having a succinct conclusion that ties up the clues and plotlines developed through the show (see my previous post for some examples). Every week my friends and family would gather and discuss the most recent show, trying to suss out the “big story” in relation to any new info we got that week. But the finale made all those discussions moot. And this is a shame because the ability to inspire thought and theories and discussions was one of the things I really loved about Battlestar. But it all came to nothing. That’s how I feel about the finale anyway.

  121. Fortisesto

    I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned this yet but I happen to believe, whatever Kara was after she died, she was very much a real human i.e. not like the head Baltar and head Six. I think, from listening to an interview Katee Sackhoff did on KUFO-FM (Portland, OR), she led me to believe that she stayed with Anders on Galactica and she met her final end with him on the ship. Her last moments with Admiral Adama and Lee could have been Anders cylon projecting her to them on “Earth” as a last goodbye. It’s a crazy thought but I left the finale not angry but thoughtful-just like every other episode from the series. That’s all I asked…

  122. Kathy

    I thouht the finale was great!

  123. Seneca

    OK, I’ll make this brief and just add my two cents. While I am an atheist, I felt that 95% of the finale was absolutely wonderful. I loved the symbolism, the metaphor, etc. I didn’t have too much of a problem with the choices the characters made at the end – some of it was a bit fishy but not enough that I couldn’t maintain my suspension of disbelief.

    Now, the one thing that bothered me was the whole Starbuck dissapearing act. I felt like her ending was too overtly supernatural. (I never did like the fact that she came back the way she did, I had a naggig suspicion that there was no way to rescue that one.) Now, there was a lot of supernatural aspects throughout the show, but I found them likeable (even pleasantly surprising) by virtue of their subtlety. There was mysticism, there was synchronicity, there was an undercurrent of the divine interacting with the world – just nudging the course of events here and there – softly, almost like a subtle breeze rustling the leaves on a tree. But the Starbuck thing blew the subtlety. It was too in your face. Even the Head-Baltar and Head-Six angels I could deal with (though I wish their interactions with their corporeal counterparts would also have been a bit less direct in the finale – they shouldn’t have appeared on the planet at the end). But the subtlety there was preserved, for the most part, by virtue of the fact that these were just manifestations of the divine using the imaginations of these people to project an image of the person they loved, and thereby communicate with them. But the Starbuck thing… man… just no subtlety there. Fortisesto’s idea is cool, but it still runs into problems explaining how the hell Starbuck was resurrected in the first place. If she’s an angel, then it makes sense. But for frak’s sake, there’s nothing subtle about that! It just strays too much from the religious concepts of the mystics to the idiotic religious concepts of the uneducated masses.

    Anyway, that’s the only point that really bothers me. An unfortunate mis-step, in an otherwise satisfying ending.

    Seneca

  124. anon

    Wow, I’ve never read so many brain-dead comments spewed forth by so many bitter, angry atheists. This is why I can’t stand hardcore Sci-Fi geeks; you people are so simpleminded, arrogant, and overly enamored with your own opinions.

    This series was not about god, and neither was the ending. The writing of the series finale took a more mythical/fantastical approach, but those elements have been embedded in the series since the beginning.

    Did all of you rabid amateur critics really think this series would end with some sort of ‘Star Wars’-esk sci-fi extravaganza? This isn’t a silly (and stupid) show like Star Trek. In many ways, it is an attempt to explore exactly where that franchise went wrong (both philosophically and story-wise). Seriously, what series have you people been watching?

  125. Matt

    @Cimone

    Regarding the Arrow that S01 focused so much about, this is how I see it. The Arrow and all of the prophecies they were following were those of the 13th tribe of Kobul, the tribe in which we later find out to be nothing special at all. They (the 13th tribe) have laid out all this prophecy in order to find the Earth THEY settled on (the nuked one). The fleet indeed did find this planet, with the correct constellations, however it had been completely nuked. This was our planet.

    Two issues remain with this however. Firstly, the vision that all of them had once the arrow was placed into the archers hand in the tomb of Athena. We can assume that vision was not in real time, and what Earth had looked like to the 13th tribe once they had found it. Think more like a recording I suppose.

    The final issue, and this one being far more pressing, is the question of whether or not the 150,000 years forward civilization was supposed to be ours or not. If it was, then the only explanation would be that there are many different galaxies with Earths on them with the same constellations. I suppose this would make sense since if “All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again” then you would need many copy galaxies lying in hiding out there somewhere. We don’t touch on where they are exactly once Starbuck enters the coordinates for the FTL, so we will never really know, but that’s my explanation for it. :)

    Cheers

  126. boyd

    Loved the show- as no doubt we here all did
    But what the heck was that last half hour about?
    Was that the best they could come up with?
    Come on. I really think they just ran out of ideas, didn’t know how to tie it all up and close out a lot of their arcs through the (terrific) series, and got edited to heck by the boss. What a sad end, but better to end than be like Lost, which is just plain Lost.

  127. boyd

    Ronald D Moore I rebuke thee.
    Get thee behind me you traitor
    The great Science Fiction writers all knew where they were going when they started a story. You sir, are a fraud. You did not sir. You made it up and let us down and tried to close it off by hiding behind the cop out of deus ex machina. Well sir I am on to you. You are lost to me as is the series. A once great story, war, humanity, fascism in times of crisis, cowardice, all closed off with “they strolled off into the sunset”. You are a disgrace to your profession sir. When, nae, IF, you ever go to a fans convention I wil be in the front row armed with pages of examples of where you have failed us, yourself, the fans and the series. You had no idea, NO FRAKKIN IDEA what the Opera House and the music was. You had NO DIEA what to do once Kara became the harbinger of death. No sir you cannot hide behind “she is whatever you want her to be”. YOu cannot hide behind “they edited it and yeah it wasn’t clear what happened to the colony” What a disgrace. Jeff is right, you failed. No soup for you. I will make it my divine purpose and destiny to hunt you down to Fan conventions and publicly expose you for the grand fraud you were to us. Put your hand into your pocket sir and pay for a better ending. My 12 yr old son had better more plausible endings. Kara nuking everyone. ONly 6 and Baltar and Hera surviving, landing back on Original earth. And the only thing worse than you sir must be the spineless supine gutless co-writers. No wonder Cavill came up with the idea of his own suicide. I too would have asked to commit suicide if I read I was going to be thrown off a deak by a 1 eyed confused drunk in a rip off of something from Star Wars. He wanted to make sure there was no way back for his ccharacter. Did he ask for the bullets to be real? Dallas the Dream has nothing on this closing chapter. YOu better make sure there are alternate endings in teh box set cos I’m telling you now no one will be buying it if you leave it like it is. What a disappointment, what a fraud. I will write to the Sci Fi writers union to make sure you sir never work in this town again. The Characters Steve Erkel and Buster from Arrested Development had more complexity and believability than this episode did. Buddy from Charles in Charge was more cerebral. Where did it go wrong? I tell you where. The frakkin bath tubs and Baltar in bed with 6 and the other one (yeah, remember her). tut tut tut. I dare you to show your face after that one. I await to learn the penance you will offer to fans who are now soured to the journey you took them on, only to be let down like they were. You sir, left me at the alter with the bill. And I am not laughing.

  128. Optimistic Future

    Mr. Moore, just because you have the line “SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO ROLL A HARD SIX” in BSG, doesn’t mean that you have to do it to the finale.
    Sadly, I have read through all the posts (hurray for a boring weekend), and posted above before. My reason for hating the ending is simple; *people look for answers from media.* (please refrain from claiming that only unintelligent people look for answers from the media because if were not true you wouldn’t be reading this)

    1) This program came out after 9/11 and reflected A LOT of views dealing with war (lets not kid ourselves, its about the holocaust of 12 colonies and the New Caprica episodes are foreign occupation and suicide bombings).
    2) What is NOT from the war story-arc, connect the common person to the shows characters.
    examples: the interpersonal relationships with one another, love/hate/jealousy/etcetera. The morality and justice issues, or even the though of someone having a song stuck on their mind can relate someone to the cylons.

    With the viewer connected to the aspects & characters we unconsciously apply this to our mental scheme of how the world should be [NOT LITERALLY EVERY ASPECT, but an overview]. Humans crave answers to their life’s purpose (unknowingly) in entertainment…thats the true reason why we watch. Anybody who disagrees, just think about how many lonely women see love movies and think thats how its actually going to happen to them (weirdos).

    Art imitates life, and life imitates art…BSG was something that a culture who experience 9/11 could sit back and watch to see “Yeah, its bad right now but we survived, and we will not vanish from existence, SO SAY WE ALL!!!”
    It was as if BSG was a big rally-cry to show possible solutions in the confusing world ‘we’ live in. It also showed the other point of views from the enemy, one could say even to the extent to justify suicide bombings; during a time that the US was experiencing high casualty rates from this tactic in Iraq. I understand that not everyone is American who watches BSG, but think who the original target audience is before you jumpdown my throat and say that because I’m American EVERYTHING MUST be about America and 9/11, because that’s not true. If it was re-imagined 10 years earlier it would have been extremely different, its just a sign of the times it was made.
    ….then the writers left the viewer in a REAL world, @ the moment in a global financial crisis, a moment where we have NOT TRUE SOLUTION IN SIGHT.

    And the writers answer is to say BELIEVE IN GOD AND EVERYTHING WILL WORK OUT in the long-run. If you agree with the conclusion you are as thin-backboned as Gaius Baltar and just as easily manipulated (this is coming NOT-from an atheist BTW).
    However, I do understand that these were NOT taped after the financial crisis but were probably written before the meltdown. I’m just trying to justify my reaction as well as the others who disliked it….who knows, maybe if the writes strike never happened things would have been different. BUT THERE”S NO REASON TO DWELL ON THE PAST, JUST REMEMBER IT SO YOU DON’T REPEAT IT.

  129. Toddster

    I’ve been thinking that its more accurate to describe Starbuck a la Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings with amnesia. She was Grey Starbuck before the Viper explosion, a messier more human version of Starbuck. After she returned (tinted in clean white) she was a purer version of herself, more driven towards her destiny, and less given to the human character flaws she exhibitted before (other than self doubt and drinking, which appears to be about all she did). Just like Gandalf she was sent back by the Powers (or Power) That Be to finish a job, and was then recalled home. The only difference is that unlike Gandalf, she didn’t know her destiny / purpose on her return, until the very end.

    Anyway just a thought

  130. boyd

    Okay. Its a few hours later. I’ve calmed down.
    Now, go do the right thing by yourself, the wonderful show it is, and the fans, and get the cast and crew back together, and reshoot the last 45 minutes (from the moment Baltar and 6 said “you see them too”- for that was the moment the show entered the sad hall of shame of having “jumped the shark”).
    Kara
    The Opera House
    Hera
    Adama
    Lee
    Laura dying_before_she gets there
    A ship full of cylons jetting off into space
    The prophecies
    The viper
    The octagonal paper they used all through the show
    Anders
    The Final 5
    Kobol
    Cavill
    Why some Cyons could get pregnant when others couldn’t
    Tie that all up- plus more- in line with the script development of the preceding 4 years.
    Take us back to the high point of the great script writing when they were on New Caprica.
    Do it right Ron. Do it right now.

  131. zarg05

    Yes i agree with one poster who said that the religious theme narrative was set up even in the min series, by the middle of the 4 th series baltar’s ramblings about touching the perfection of god were becoming extremely annoying. Do we deserve to survive? main theme really with some good insights into why and certain decisions made to either vindicate or question this concept. I don’t understand why getting rid of tech and living in mud huts without medicine is helping anybody let alone aiding survival. Mortality rates would drop to the floor, the survivors would be open to strains of diseases they had not encountered before etc. Are we to believe that there will be no development at all? I didn’t want everything answered neatly a to z but a lot more of possible ways to interpret things metaphorically. The god/angel thing put the brakes on that one. having angels and demons in physical form is just another way of abrogating personal responsibility. Good and bad become things external to human beings, this is nonsense and medeival thinking.
    Too many plot points were ignored or made redundant and pointless with the sweep of a line of dialogue. With such a sweep the entire first series and a half were written off really.

    Man created cylons………..they revolted………..they have a plan………..pity no one told the writers what it was.

    During the revolt i was hoping it would succeed given the abysmal track record of Roslyn, and both Adama’s, Tigh etc. They really royally screwed things up. Its not surprising there was an uprising, maybe there should have been an uprising in the writers conference too.

    During these uprising events and during the genocide on New Caprica they didn’t go far enough. We just lost a bunch of faceless civilians/military and some of the supporting roles, the main actors were never really under threat. They should have gone the whole hog- now that would have been dramatic.

    I found the ending extremely poor, simplistic, idealised and unbeleivable. I wish Admiral Cain had survived, she wouls have showed what a witless bunch the final 5 really were (the 3 stooges had more brains) and we already knew her views on Roslyn/Adama.

    This could have been a truly great show, but it squandered its chances on the whole and the ending was unforgiveably trite.

    The ending would have made Ned Flanders proud.

  132. So Sad

    I think we should lobby for another 2 hour movie before “the Plan” that would salvage the ending. I can think of a few ways that things could be fixed, I’m sure the writers could have another go. (For example, we didn’t see Anders go into the sun, maybe he comes back 2 years later with a clue about the string-puller/Kara/Hera etc. and finds a dying people in need of saving from a much more dangerous and primitive earth than they thought – after all this is 150,000 years ago, where are the giant predators etc.? ).

    If they are really stuck they could read the fan boards for some ideas – there were many more plausible and more fulfilling solutions posited by fans trying to figure it out than the final episode turned out to be. Or they could open it up to fans for ideas. I think the fan idea that Daniel is Kara’s father is brilliant, why didn’t they use it? If this were true, then Kara would be the first half cylon, her destiny would be even more flushed out, it would explain how her father knew the music, it would maybe explain how she was resurrected (she could come back because she had half cylon blood). It could even add another layer to Cavill’s malice – he might have sent Kara’s father, described as gentle and artistic, down to the planet programmed to fall in love with the horrible woman that was Kara’s mother (it would be like saying “this is what human’s are, they follow their hearts even if it hurts them”). But out of that malice comes something good in that Kara is born (unless she was written as a harbinger of death etc., but you know what I mean). I think this would have made a fantastic plot and that he saw it on the fan boards before the finale and ignored it because it wasn’t his idea bothers me greatly. I thought the goal was just making the best show ever.

    So let’s not let them make this the end of our favorite show. Let’s make them fix it.

    Who’s with me?

    Write a new ending! So say we all!

  133. huh

    So say we all!

  134. MisterCosmic

    Explanation/Sequel idea 1: Battlestar Atlantis… where the survivors decide to keep to themselves on an island in the Atlantic Ocean until a fateful day when their island sinks beneath the waves…

    Explanation/Sequel idea 2: Tales of the Ship of Lights… instead of plunging the fleet into the sun, Sam takes off, hooks up with the Centurions, and over tens of thousands of years, merges all the ships into one vessel… he becomes a superbeing/computer with super intelligent cylons of energy… He discovers and learns to control time itself, in order to learn more of his own history, which is incomplete. He begins to observe humans on Kobol… but his act of observation interfers with things, and so to set things to what he thinks is right, his angelic agents become involved with human affairs, sometimes even going so far as to bring dead ones back to life… especially ones he misses.

    Explanation/Sequel idea 3: How about a story about Earth humans, in the near future, who discover alien technological plans for ships and FTL drives… they build ships and christen the first one Galactica, after a name found on the alien blueprints…

    There… all the bases covered… all the endings are now complete…

  135. Ness

    the ending was more than disappointing !!!
    Too many unsolved storylines… beyond that no explanation for Kara & head people. I mean if she is an angel/ghost, she still needed an actual angel to help her (piano player). It was slappy to have built such a plot around her & how she is special from the beginning of the show. Moreover, she was really one of the main characters and deserved more than disappeared like this in a field without explanation…
    and Hera… ok i get that she is a symbol but come on… you are going to sacrifice all these people to get her although she is not essential!!! the opera house thing in the CIC was just bad… I am passing a lot of inconsistencies too…
    For such an amazing show, which opens so many doors, including wonderful metaphors with our own society (the irak war, bush administration…) to end in such a way is more than disappointing!!! Sorry Mr Moore but you are either a crazy christian with no brain or you just, unlike the cyclons, never had a plan. You sacrifice real artistic direction and creativity to money and make more episodes, rushing to add plots without even knowing where you were going. I feel deeply betrayed as I have been watching the show since the beginning and be a huge supporter of your work. It was bad, just another bad science fiction ending. To create a confusion among your fans is easy- let’s add another fake clue or another storyline that we will never conclude anyway- but to answer them in an artistic way that creates sense and gives a perspective to the entire show is harder. Fooled by the slogan “you will know the truth”, i was thinking of rewatching the entire show with this finale knowledge that would have allowed me to understand it deeper. Now i think that i am going to sell my dvd’s on ebay. Really! I was expecting everything to be answered but this finale did not answer anything. Even from the charcter’s perspective. Adama ending up alone in a mountain, Balter & Six suddenly lovers again… Even if I never thought that Kara & Lee will have a happy ever after story, and I dont even know what kara was, is it really the way that she would say bye to a person that she loved as much as she loved Lee?? the finale did not make any sense… both from general storyline and character’s perspective. Any good fan website offers way better theories than what was proposed in the finale. Of course, we had the awesome last fight… great images but you don’t even know why they go there (saving hera-becomes saving private ryan), you are not sure if the colony was destroyed & if it was that easy detroyed, they should have done it way before)… In short, what a shame!! so many expectations for that!!
    Now as usual, the fans are trying to get the best of it and putting together theories about the symbolism… but come on the only answer that we had is “it was god”. Ok i can take a little of it but to reduce everything to that…. it is simply bad and demonstrates both no respect for the fans & writers with no imagination, who not even remember the numerous plots that they put into place… really, thank you so much for nothing!!!

  136. I’m not even religious and yet I respected the spiritual, ehterial elements guiding things along. Playing out the “What if you gradually realized you were dead and WERE an agent of God despite your screw-ups?” with Kara was incredibly gutsy, they even kept Katie Sachoff in the dark over…well…being in the dark about Kara, so she went through various degrees of emotion in her performances in the final season that reflected an interior struggle…and when all was clear to the actress and the character, it fit her final scenes perfectly.

    I’m glad Lee didnt get with Kara at all. The near sex romp at Zak’s apartment and their sexual encounter on New Caprica leading to Kara marrying Sam, to me, shows that Kara is an honourable woman who wants to be true to the people she loves and who give everything for her, she never considered Lee anything other than her closest friend. She does not belong to Earth, as her husband is waiting for her in the afterlife. Lee’s selfishness is one of the more subtle elements in the series, as he is a man of true morality, a kind heart, and a feirce respect to the people…but he can’t keep his heart and his head in the same place, as Laura pointed out to him a few weeks ago. He doesnt always do the smart thing…which brings us to his decision to wipe out technology and let the planet’s population develop at their own pace.

    I agree, it only leads to the cycle repeating…and I can’t help but wonder if elements like racism were introduced into our culture because of the simmering resentment for the Cylons lingering with many of the former colonials….several mutineers are still alive. Lampkin himself could “pull a Tom Zarek” one day, as he’s never entirely black or white with Lee. Lee being eager to explore suggests he, again, is trying to run away from the problems his decision will create. We owe many of our most primative wars and tyranical empires to the people he didnt put into consideration…because for Lee Adama, the selfless are all that matter, not the selfish.

    And did anyone notice that Laura died before she reached the site of where Bill was intending to build his house? A house looking over a hill, something Laura always wanted to live in herself? The “dying leader” didnt reach the promised land after all. Another great twist provided by the Pythian Prophecy.

    So Sad: Who’s “we”?

    The critics who can’t think?

    The people who never understood this series in the first place?

    The dumbasses that want everything explained to them?

    All the explanations by MisterCosmic are cheap, bad, fanfiction derived from Larson’s cheesy, hippie shit.

    The endings ARE complete, ALL the bases WERE covered, it’s just PATHETIC, WEAK-MINDED, BLOODY ADOLESCENT FELDERCARB that can’t ACCEPT something as cut-and-dry as “GOD” and his divine plan. I’m not even religous, and yet I can accept this ending.

    To Ronald D Moore and all TRUE fans of this series. Laugh at these people. Laugh HARD. For they do not beleive, they never did, they wasted their lives, where as our lives were enriched by this show’s balls, risks, and heart. It told a story of life as others knew it, life they had to throw away, a way of life that we are slowly reaching…let us take what we can from this show and apply it to us, let it educate, let it linger, and don’t let these FOOLS question our faith, our beleifs. For in time, the doubters will fade into insignificence, and we are all better off without their prescience.

    It was God.

    Deal with it.

    Or expose yourselves as the faux fans you will ALWAYS be. You fracking worthless malcontent, shallow, narrow-minded CHILDREN

    SO SAY WE ALL!

    FRAK THE FAUX FANS

    FRAK THE FAUX FANS

    FRAK THE FAUX FANS

  137. And neil…I love that you call Moore “brainless” yet can’t spell Cylon

    FRAK THE FAUX FANS!

  138. Mari

    The criticisms are valid although I believe the writers strike and network demands are huge factors. Not to mention other factors like actors and wriuters that have other commitments.

    The re-magined BSG was brilliant and fans wanted an ending that reflects that. Daybreak Pt 2 isn’t the finale we were expecting.

    *shrugs*

  139. Not Cool

    When the going gets tough, the tough put a bullet in their head Boomer (tried), Dee and Cavil; fly in to the Sun like Anders; or go off to die alone D’anna (the last number 3), Bill Adama and Chief Tyrol.

    Great message for the kids RM!

  140. I agree with most of the problems people posting here have with the finale – and I agree with most of the people here about what the loved about it.

    I do think that two major opportunities were missed with this finale. No, three. No, four.

    1. The prophecies did clearly state that Roslin would die before she reached Earth. This was simply ignored.

    But it could have been addressed *and* made everything richer. Roslin’s decision to risk dying earlier in order to help the mission, ended up helping them make it to Earth.

    So that could have been the breaking of the cycle, rendering the prophecy wrong – and the start of something new.

    This all could have been addressed in two lines of a scene with Roslin and Adama, before they left Galactica.

    Roslin: You know, the prophecies said I would never get to see Earth.

    Adama: Did they now.

    And then he takes her there – showing there is a brand new set of possibilities, and they are freed from previous fates.

    What clearer proven example that they’ve broken the cycle?

    2. I would have been happier with a clearer explanation of what Kara was. But let’s say the writers wanted to leave who she was unexplained.

    I still would have dearly liked to see a clearer resolution for Kara’s *emotional state* as a character. I’d have liked to see her grappling with **whatever** she is, and finally accpeting it. And maybe realizing what she’s done her whole life, who she’s hurt and who she’s helped and who she’s loved and hated, has been a complete part of this destiny.

    How her mother was helping to shape her, and maybe how that made her mother sick. How that helped or hurt her throughout her whole life. How that led her to ping from one relationship to another, to hurt Lee and love him too – and maybe love everyone.

    That would have been a beautiful moment for that character to see, and would have left viewers a lot more satisfied with her character disappearing. i don’t think it was just the disappearing that was the problem – it was the lack of emotional resolution for that character.

    3. I would have liked to see a bit more struggle from the people of the fleet, about letting go of the technology and starting over. That could have really brought the whole series to a head, in once crowded scene with a few lines.

    Crewmen: “Why let go of all of this?”

    Doc Cottle: “More of our children are going to die without technology. And die young. Disease, the elements, natural disasters, famine…they’ll have an average life span of 30 years, for Gods know how long.

    Ellen: “But we held onto the technology when we went to Earth1 from Kobol. And we didn’t learn. We destroyed ourselves 3000 years before the Colonies.”

    Apollo: “this is our only chance to break the cycle! if we can come up again, from our roots, without the crutch of technology, wih a truly clean slate, then we won’t have another tragic death of billions, maybe hundreds of billions of people. We can actually grow.”

    Some of this came out in Apollo’s talk in the finale – but there was no argument. And argument makes the whole issues clearer and more emotional. What humanity is giving up here is supreme and weighty, and in context so noble. I would like that point to be driven more forward.

    4. I would have liked to see some closure with the cylon Leoben and Starbuck. He was trying to help her and guide her – more than any other cylon. Why was this? What was it in her, that was he clued in about and other cylons were not? And then why was he suddenly freaked out about her?

    5. Something not necessarily needed, but that I would like to have seen: visions appearing to Hera, and/or angels. This would indicate that she is in some way going to be a spiritual leader, in addition to the mother of humanity. That would have satisfied emotionally, for me, the symbolic importance of that character as well. We never really saw anything from that character’s point of view, for even a second.

    Waaaaay back in I think the second season, during the visit to Kobol, Boomer mentioned the cylons new a lot more about who the original Hera was. This was never followed up on. Would have loved to have seen a bit more about that too.

    Who knows how much of these issues were addressed more, in the original script? Or even shot for the finale, and then was edited out? But I think it would help quite a bit.

    Also, since the BSG team did such a great job backfilling in with the Pegasus series, I would like to see a few other series come in and fill in further areas of this great universe. Some of the Pegasus and Galactica adventures, when they were both crewed by the Adamas. Some of the Cylon Basestar’s struggles. Maybe what happened with Tory Foster and an abortive power grab.

    As a side note – if the cylon colony does get sucked into the hole there, that does bring up interesting possibilities for the identity of the God / gods.

    If they cylon ship floats in the event horizon and then the border of the singularity, according to some theories time can effectively slow down to infinity.

    Which means that if previous cylon civilizations felt into that singularity (or others), they could have a long time to develop, grow, and think on the mistakes that led them there.

    This could lead them to merge together and develop the understanding of the Universe to try and guide others to avoid their fate – which could be the source of the Gods and/or Angel-like figures helping to guide cylons and humanity.

    That’s all I got…

  141. PortaPetey

    A few more random thoughts and questions -

    Was it ever stated that Kara’s corpse was 2000 years old? I wasn’t under that impression. Earth v. 1 had been destroyed 2000 years ago, but her plane only crashed there a few months before, right? I don’ think there was any time travel.

    I think the resurrected Kara was flesh and bone, not just a projection like the Head characters. This makes her disappearance in this episode all the more odd. As for how she was resurrected with a new ship that had been upgraded – honest I have to believe that there is a real – not supernatural – advanced being who was able to recreate her body and download her memories into it just like the Cylon do. This is likely the same being who the Inner characters talk about. The humans and Cylons refer to it as God for lack of knowing what it really is.

    I guess what I’m saying is that God may be an alien of some sort. (I have heard of beings of light in the original series – I guess that’s what they were?) For the record I find this idea even cheesier than a supernatural explanation. THAT would be a deus ex machina. “Oh, it’s not God after all, it’s these aliens that we never bothered to talk about before.”

    On that note, the God explanation is NOT a deus ex machina. A deus ex machina is something that suddenly pops up out of nowhere to neatly wrap everything up. The God explanation did not come out of where; it’s been a theme running through the entire show.

    On another topic, the issue of the constellations lining up with those of Earth v. 1 is interesting. There’s lots of comments on this from the show’s science advisor here: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2009/03/20/battlestar-galactica-watched-the-finale-exclusive-interview-with-kevin-grazier-science-advisor/

    To those of you suggesting that there’s been a cop out and it seems the Cylons had no plan after all, remember there’s a moving coming in the fall called, um, “The Plan”. I hope it gives some explanations for some of the things raised above.

    I still feel the whole Baltar / Caprica / Hera thread was weak. If there were humans on Earth v. 2 already, and if Baltar and Caprica can probably reproduce now, then presumably both races are taken care of and Hera isn’t really necessary. On the other hand, she is Mitochondrial Eve, so maybe there was still soemthing more special about her.

  142. SciFiGuy

    I loved it.
    Thought it was a great way to tnd the series.

    As for all the religious parts not making any sense, it makes perfect sense if you just think of the ‘angels’ like Head Baltar, Head-Six, and Starbuck to be of the same beings in the Ship of Lights from the original series.
    They were considered angels too.
    This time around we just never got to see them the same way but I can accept it as being part of their grand scheme of things. Everything from the Opera House visions (where the Final-5 ebven looked like the Light beings) to Starbuck’s resurrection and knowlege of new and old Earth (much like Apollo from the original series encounter with the Light beings).

    I’ve been suspecting the Ship of Lights involvement all along and to me it all made sense at the end.

  143. Joel

    This show is not for kids anyway… It’s violent, very dark and full of indecent scenes. I also would not expect someone who have lesser knowledge of recent and past history to really get something out of this… Except for the space battles, which got ever more scarce as the seasons progressed.

    I guess that’s what people missed. The first seasons were more about wars… and so had lots of action and explosion. The later were way more melodramatic, with a focus on the characters way more than the plot twists. There was many weak episodes along the way, but not the ending. I just remember some one-themed shows where I was bored. Like Collaborators in season 3 was one of those overstretched segment that said very little, except perhaps that angry mobs handing out death sentences might not be too good an idea. No kidding… There was a few others… Unfinished Business, while quite ambitious, was a bit unsatisfying. An entire show within the confine of boxing matches (why, where and when did they start having those anyway) with quite silly metaphors along the way. I just don’t get what this episode had to say, except banalities… and no plot-line developed there really.

    Finally, while I think season 4 was quite superior than the weak season 3… There was many things that were not so necessary at this point in the storyline. Why so many flashbacks that late in the series? Do movies ever start having flashbacks in the last 3 minutes of the story? Not too often… so why fill so much screen time with flashbacks to build up minor character elements at the last second. Someone said it here, but I think they are hyping up the prequel already (Caprica)… and that have hurt somewhat the excitement of the show. There just was no reason to have elements revealed now about their past, that may have fit just as well in the miniseries of 2003. Just seem totally out of place. In the last episode, I can rationalize the justification for the 30 minutes spent in the stripclub and the Lee/Kara boozing. What are those scenes really telling me and why does it take so long?

    I loved the show, most of it… I just found the whole structure was odd… You do know that the last episode was set to be 2 hours… but they “stretched” it to 3 hours so that they could justify a higher budget. That’s the truth… in some ways, you can feel where they added scenes to fill up the extra 43 minutes. It was a nice ending, I actually feel it could have been better if they squeezed a few of the overextended flashbacks.

    David Blyth is sadly being brainless (as he call others) trying to defend the show. Not really getting it himself, interpreting it the same way one would an afternoon soap-opera.

  144. Sofrakkingsad

    Such a disappointment. Was it Matt that put together that thorough analysis of all the misfires and short-fallings of the finale? Yup, he was spot on. So many balls dropped, too many opportunities missed, and quite frankly, a real mess.

    I won’t repeat all the questions that I, too, am left with after this last episode… but there is just this one thing that I want to say: if the writers really had no real idea about how to tie together all the loose ends which seemed to increase in number with nearly every episode, why didn’t they follow the lead of their fan?? So many amazingly brilliant ideas have been put out there by fans throughout the show’s duration… It’s almost as if the fans are the ones who had the good ideas, not the writers who get paid by the pound… and the writers couldn’t outsmart the fans so they just dropped the ball (on multiple subplots and themes)…

    The honest thing to have done would have been just that: make the fans a part of writing the finale. Make it a contest, or an on-line writing forum where fan’s ideas are actually developed and I’d be willing to bet some real money that the finale would have offered real closer to the different challenges…

    As is, the writers essentially tried to outsmart everyone and in fact have done nothing substantial. They basically threw their hands up in the air and said “I dunno”.

    That’s what happens when people take on way too much to handle and then, rather than come clean about having taken on too much, they keep trying to at least appear as if they know what they’re doing. “Fake it till you make it” sure as hell didn’t work in this case.

    All I can say is… “aaah… to hell with that shite” and, as someone else posted upthread, I don’t even think I’ll be able to watch the shows again now because the finale made it all worth nothing… all the mysteries along the way, all the intriguing subplots, exciting build ups… all ended with nothing.

  145. Sofrakkingsad

    I meant “why didn’t they follow the lead of their fanS??” FANS, multiple

  146. Egaeus

    I have no problem with them ending up on our Earth and that we’re they’re descendants. It does make sense, and doesn’t conflict with the nuked Earth. I remember not being about to see any continents distinctly.

    However, I think that resolving all of the open questions in the plot with “goddidit!” is intellectually empty. There’s nothing to think about. It’s like intelligent design. It never occurred to me until last night that science and art would have that in common.

  147. The Kaptajn

    >>If you didn’t want fairytales, why were you watching a science fiction show?

    >>I don’t get the point of your question. Science fiction is grounded in reality and the natural world. That’s why it’s called SCIENCE fiction. Fairytales, especially religion, are made-up stories passed down to make unintelligent people not afraid of death. They are mutually exclusive.

    Crispy, science fiction is make-believe. BSG is make-believe. We cannot actually FTL jump. We cannot actually artificially create gravity. One could pull out a certain Clarke quote here, or one could point out that if science fiction that wasn’t plausible scientifically as we know the natural world now somehow disqualified as science fiction, you’d oust at least half (likely more) of the current scifi corpus from the genre, and almost every science fiction series. Even some of the Hard Sci-fi classics would get the boot, as their previously “hard” prophecies of the future turned out to be false.

    BSG was never a “Hard” scifi series and never pretended to be. The original had magical alien-angels flying about in Ships of Light and was at least partly based on the scribblings of a certain Swiss author and Mormon religious doctrine.

  148. Shawn P.

    I am an Atheist and I loved the ending. God makes for a great plot device.

  149. Shawn P.

    Oh, and without a doubt my favorite part and the question I would ask of Mr. Eick and Mr. Moore would be:

    “Whose decision was it to use the original theme song at the end when the old lady was heading off the to the sun? Whomever it was deserves all the success he can handle. As a fan who grew up on the original series (and it was my favorite show, bar none) that touch brought tears to my eyes. I loved it.”

  150. StevieK

    QUESTIONS – NEED YOUR HELP!

    ? Starbuck ended up being an angel (resurrected soul) who brought humans and cylons together and to their new world in the final episode. So then why was Starbuck repeatedly called the Harbinger of Death or similar throughout the series and by so many different parties?

    ? Supposedly, the humans had the 13th Colony, Earth, who?s people sprang off from the humans of the 12 colonies. But when they found this 13th Colony, Earth, we find out it was the Cylon Homeworld. How could the Cylon Homeworld be the human?s 13th colony? Then who was the human 13th tribe?

    ? The Final 5 Cylons (who actually turned out to be the original five cylons) were among humans for up to over 30 years among the 12 colonies and in the human?s military (Saul Tigh) and obviously must have aged (i.e. Tigh only had memories as a human and he and Admiral Adama grew up and grew old together). Does this mean all cylons can age (and die of old age)? Or only the Final/Original Five cylons could age but the other 7 skin job cylon models didn?t age? (We never saw any of the other 7 skin job cylons at different ages, which leads one to believe THEY don?t age. But we know the Final/Original Five cylons age. ) (Saul obviously had to have aged, otherwise Admiral Adama, who knew Saul for over 30 years, would have obviously noticed he didn?t age.) How is this inconsistency explained?

    ? Why did the Final 5 cylons not tell their children cylons who they were for so long?

    ? So the Final 5 Cylons, were around on earth 2000 years ago and there was a great war on earth that killed everyone on earth. But these five managed to have built and put a ?resurrection? ship in earth?s orbit and were ?resurrected? when they died on earth. Do I have this right?

    ? What did the Final 5 cylons (who actually turned out to be the original five clyons) do for 2000 years before they found the humans in our story?

    ? Why did the Final 5 cylons (who actually turned out to be the original five cylons), lose themselves among humans and repressed who they actually were (Cylons) for so long?

    ? When Tigh killed his wife, she ?Resurrected? in the Cylon Resurrection Ship. So wouldn?t this information have gone out to all Cylon?s at that time? Because as soon as one of the Centurion?s recognized Ander?s to be a Cylon, it completely changed the way Cylons acted and treated the humans. Remember, at the time ?Ellen Tigh? was resurrected, there was not yet the dissension and war between cylons. There would have been no reason to have withheld this information. Why wasn?t this information shared among all cylons?

    ? How did a Centurion recognize Anders to be a Cylon (and especially when no one else could tell including the skin job cylons)?

    ? In the final episode, when they were on their new earth, why did Admiral Adama leave (all said and knew he wasn?t coming back)? He now finally had a chance to spend time in peace with his son, Lee, and Starbuck (he didn?t know she was an angel) who was like a daughter to him. And now that both Starbuck?s and Lee?s spouses were dead, they could actually hook up and get married, which would have also made Admiral Adama happy (he would have likely had grandbabies to play with in a little while). Why would he leave and never come back?

    ? So did Gaylen turn out to be the original ?Highlander?/Immortal? (Was someone just having fun with a that one?) And/or is this in tribute to Star Trek?s ?Scotty? who was from Scotland and also an engineer, much like Galen.

    ? The ?Sixes? seemed to have superhuman strength; Sharon could handle the radiation in one episode that humans, couldn?t; . Also, remember when Tory killed Cally, she also seemed to have ?Superhuman? strength ? with just a swat, she sent Cally flying in the outer bay; etc. Please elaborate on this. Some cylons had above average strength and some didn?t?

    ? What?s with the glowing spine when one of the cylon?s was having sex? Was that just the writers playing around? Did this happen all the time? Wouldn?t have someone noticed this?

    ? Okay, so after Baltar was determined to be suspect, why didn?t they have another scientist create a ?Cylon? detector?

    ? So what is really the difference between a Cylon (skin job) and a human?

  151. Alex

    My knee-jerk reaction to the outlandishly negative response to the finale — this is more than just simple criticism; it goes beyond the pale — is in my opinion from here on in American broadcast television should remove all quality scripted drama and replace it all with 24/7 news and American Idol. I truly hope we never see a series of this quality again on TV because it’s obviously wasted on the audience. Not meaning to generalize as there are folks who seem capable of getting it. But this talk of getting them to redo the ending, and the old “read the fan boards and get your plots from there because they know better” argument (which is so 2002 it’s not even funny) — and sci-fi fans wonder why everyone else in the world is laughing at you. If you hated BSG and want to burn your DVD’s and never utter its name again, fine. It’s out there and it will be out there forever. BSG wins. RDM wins. You lose.

  152. GeoWarriorsDeth

    At the end of the pilot, there was a hand that left a piece of paper for Adama or Rosilyn (I can’t remember which) that stated their are 12 models. Who left this tid-bit and why? Any ideas? The Cavil priest guy, Tigh, Boomer, Baltar?

  153. Sean

    I’m not going to say that the finale was without its problems, because there’s nothing without its problems, but Ron Moore doesn’t owe me or anyone else a goddamn thing. Loose ends: deal with it. Unsatisfying mythology: deal with it. Too much spirituality, not enough string theory: deal with it. BSG gave us some of the most thrilling, thought-provoking and emotionally engaging television in years, and we should all be thankful for that. If you think you had better ideas, trust me: you didn’t. And even if you had, you couldn’t have brought the series to any better conclusion. Moore and his staff are some of the best writers out there in any genre, and they gave it their all. So save your ideas for the annals of fan-fiction, and give the real writers a goddamn break already.

  154. Not Cool

    Fine we the FANS will write our own damn ending!

    Kara was Daniel’s (Number Seven) daughter. The FANS want it and don’t give a frack if it doesn’t fit in with your stupid Caprica spin-off. We’re not buying the DVD anyway. That makes Kara the first hybrid and in tune with God and the music like the Final Five and Hera are. Daniel, an “artist who was sensitive to the world” was also able to pick up on the song.

    2000 years ago the Final five had in orbit above Cinder Earth/Earth 1 a space ship AND a space station which has a small resurrection hub AND a near light speed accelerator. Makes sense, because if the resurrection facilities were on their ship, then Cavil would have it and just build a new hub. Also, it takes a lot of energy to reach near light speed so getting a rail gun style shot means you need less fuel and can pack more food. Yes I know that kind of acceleration would make them goo on the bulkhead, but work with me here people. Maybe they had inertial dampner cocoons.

    Through visions God tells Kara to fly into the storm of the Gas Giant which is really a wormhole to the Great Red Spot on Jupiter 1. Wow that’s lame, but any lamer than Kara disappearing in to thin air? She makes her way to Earth 1 and docks inside the leftover resurrection station which is still in orbit. The station has used almost all of its power maintaining orbit for 2000 year, but awakes when it senses her half Cylon DNA. Both Kara and her Viper are pretty beat up and she dies in the cockpit (either from injuries or the stations life support fails).

    She is resurrected and the few Centurions loyal to the Final Five aboard the station build her a brand new uniform and Viper. She is put in and sent back the way she came. The station is now out of power and starts to fall out of orbit. The Centurions start broadcasting a colonial signal from the original Viper left in the docking bay so Kara 2 can find her way back.

    Kara 2 and Viper 2 are shot out of the near light speed accelerator. Again I know that kind of acceleration would squash her like a bug. The Viper having less mass than the Final Fives ship and traveling less than half the distance that they did, gets back to us much faster. She experiences extreme time dilation. This is why two months seem like six hours to her. When she reaches the Ionian Nebula Viper 2 is slowed down by the same force which caused the fleet to lose power. Again lame, but full burners in reverse are not going to cut it and I can’t think of any other way of stopping a near light speed Viper other than the Hand of God.

    The whole wormhole/dying/resurrection/acceleration/time dilation ordeal is why her memories of recent events are fracked.

    Before the Galactica/Fleet/Baseship arrive at Earth 1 the station enters the atmosphere. Kara 1 and her Viper are protected most of the way down by being inside the stations dock and make a “soft landing” in the field. The station and all of its contents are destroyed. What is left of her Viper continues to broadcast until Kara 2 finds it. This Viper 1 to Viper 2 broadcast maybe why it was the only “faint needle in the fleet” to pick up the signal.

    Near the end of the series Kara Cylon projects her father Daniel by the piano and finally figures out that the notes are jump coordinates. They find Earth 2, everybody happy. Someone goes to get D’anna who settles in New Zealand. Laura Roslin dies. Lee and Bill build that cabin together and score with a couple of native chicks from Saul & Ellen Tigh’s strip club. Kara 2 realizes that she is not Kara 1 and that her mission is over so she drives the ships into the Sun with Anders.

    THE END

  155. Sofrakkingsad

    I don’t give a flying frak whether having fans write the finale is “so 2002″ or whatever; problem I have is THAT the show’s fans could have done better than all those writers in the room.

    Does being devoted to the show mean that fans must give up their own intelligence and ability to see through a failure of a finale? What, we have to pledge loyalty to the show as if IT were God? Leave-your-brain-at-the-door kind of thing? If I – as a fan- didn’t give a frak would I even be here bemoaning this?

    But you are right on one thing, I did lose – I lost respect for the show, that’s what I lost.

  156. Sofrakkingsad

    Having Kara as Daniel’s daughter would address the issue of the dispute between Cavils et al and the good Cylons – Cavil aborted Daniel’s model because Daniel was on side of making an alliance with humans and becoming integrated with humanity (as per his marriage) and posed as a threat to Cavils’ plans…

    The Watchtower song was a signal agreed upon by all the Cylons before the attack on Caprica. Daniel “implanted” it in Kara by teaching it to her. Hera new it because she was part Cylon and new to her existence. The song was used (by whom though… that’s one thing I don’t get) to awaken the rest of the Cylons… in case the division between the Cylons got greater and could not be repaired and the good Cylons needed support…

    Kara’s return meant she would participate in the creation of the human-Cylon alliance (though not directly).

    Anyway… the fans could have written one hell of finale. RDM did not.

  157. Brian C McKinley

    I did think the finale was just right for the show, I figured they would find “Earth” and there would ether be an Earth fleet in our future for defense against the Cylons or it would be in the far past. So, predictable…. eehhh…. so what, it was great.
    BUT, my post is for anyone who got something more out of the ending story itself. Not specifically the character story line, but the story of the origin of man. If you do have any strange, shall I say deja vou or feelings this had more meaning than just a TV show give me an email, I would like to talk about it. loki08@mac.com

  158. Desi's Brother

    Great Thread! I just read the whole thing and it makes me feel a bit better to know that so many people objected to the ending.

    Good job Jeff and Denis you really hit the nail on the head.

    Firstly I want to give a shout out to GAETA for stealing season 4.5. His two epiodes of the Coup were amazing and were exactly what was great about this show. He started off as a nothing background character but through a series of key small events that were pivotal in his life he came to the point of leading the coup. It was brilliant. He was the most sympathetic character on the show. Dee also did a great job. It was those tragic human existential moments that were the strength of the this show and that is exactly what was completely missing in the finale.

    There was no conflict on the HUMAN level. I was bored to tears by the battle. Who cares. That is not the strength of this show. It is the philosophical and ethical dilemmas. They should have had the battle in the episode before and found new earth and devoted the entire two hours to the debate on board Gallactica as to what direction they should take. I would have loved to see a series of arguements made in front of the fleet and had people vote on what to do.

    What would the human race do if it suddenly had a new planet. I bet you anything there would be whole groups of utopian societies that would form. There would be battles and in the end we would destroy the new planet again. (which I guess was implied).

    To me the essence of this show was that human technology has evolved beyond our own ethical judgement. And I would have liked to see them make the same mistakes all over again. It would have said far more.

    It was totally contrived to have everyone give up their technology. Sure it might be the ideal, but there had to to be a mental realization that that was necessary on the part of everyone. IMPOSSIBLE. For one half the fleet was devided in a coup only a few weeks earlier. This doesn’t not heal over night!

    There were three dramatic moments that were missed.

    * They should have had Adama and Rosalin watch the destruction of the fleet and talk about their journey. They should have had people thank Rosalin for what she did.

    * Returning to new Earth they should have had Adama and Rosalin fly over the African Savannah they way they did, but have her die before ever stepping foot on the planet. It would have been tragic and poetic and it would have furfilled the prophecy that the leader never lives to see the homeland (or whatever)

    * They should have had Karl Agathon die and in the moment when Athena and Hera are walking across the field, it should have been a Cylon projection of the father. That would have been really tragic and poetic. Great moment missed.

    I hated the killing of Tory. I thought that was a really ugly scene and unfortunate for a series where woman have been so powerful. It was so unnecessary especially since they were supposed to have been lovers for thousands of years. I liked that twist because it gave some sense of why Tory killed Cally. But then there was no relationship between Galen and Tory at all.

    Like most people on here I was also really disappointed by the rejection of the Atheist undertones of the series. The ambigouity and conflict between faith and atheism was central to the series and they should have maintained the conflict. No resolution. We should been left to wonder (JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE) if there is any purpose to this. It is just a conicidence that they find a new planet (they happen) or is it fate. Why spell it out? Real life doesn’t spell it out.

    Kara’s end was lame. I, like everyone else, thought Daniel was her father and that she was the first cylon/human hybrid and was resaurected. That is what were were lead to believe. It is like the writers didn’t even realize what they were doing.

    I’m a huge LOST fan and I can only “pray” that they are paying close attention to the outrage of the BSG fans and will do whatever they can to avoid these traps.

    For me the key is don’t wrap up the conflict. That never goes away. You can start a new life, but it will not be ideal. That was the biggest mistake. It sent them all off for solo lives and broke the family apart. I just don’t buy it.

  159. Not Cool

    I really like MisterCosmic’s Explanation/Sequel idea 1: Battlestar Atlantis. Romo Lampkin and a group of less than Survivor Man types build their city on an island in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and their descendants check in the rest of the world (Egyptians, Greeks, Mayans, etc) until the island sinks 2000 years ago.

    Instead of wasting time with flashbacks Hot for Teacher/Lap Dance/Drunk Barfing/Pigeon Chasing, a GOOD look into the who/what/why of Kara could have been wrapped up. Leoben and Kara figure it out and take the baseship back to Cinder Earth where D’anna has found the final piece of the puzzle, part of the Final Fives space station. Cylon skin jobs can survive a few week of radiation, no problem. Someone wire me a budget and Lucy Lawless’s number!

  160. Desi's Brother

    I agree that Leoben got the shaft. The dynamic between him and Kara was really good and I think that should have been resolved, or he should have understood something about what she is. I agree about Lucy Lawless. She should have returned in some way, or we should have seen her walk off into the mountains on the old earth.

  161. Markdavin Obenza

    I just want to say first, that this was the best show I’ve ever seen on TV. Everything was just perfect – writing, acting, casting etc. Really interesting ethical issues were addressed. I am very sad to see the show finished, but happy they left it well.

    I just have one complaint. The majority of the show, until the last 5 episodes, had events I could really conceive happening. I rarely had the “Oh comon, that would never happen” reaction that I always have with bad TV/Movies. I feel like shows setup a set of “rules” that govern what to expect and not expect, and I thought BSG followed those rules really well. However, the last 3 or 4 episodes were trying to really push the presence of a “higher power” which I thought was exploited to wrap up the left over questions – who was Kara, why save Hera, etc.

  162. funny thing is, I agree with the detractors of the finale yet at the same time LOVED it. I understand its shortcomings and the general ‘cop out’ of it all, but really, considering how this show is written, you can’t ANSWER mythology … I almost feel like I want to hate the episode, but maybe cause I’m lame, I fell for all the cheap shots.

    True it did not hit me like certain episodes that questions humanity in a way that this season has really been unable to do, but they definitely went ‘soft’ and yes, it made me cry.

  163. boyd

    They should have shot me when they shot Gaeta. SO what was that all about as well eh. What Boomer said to him in the ship- the reason he mutineed- turned out it was nothing.
    Just like the Opera house scenes- Nothing
    Hera- nothing

    Once Baltar started his Cylon shp experience the show was dead. Actually, once they did the stuid boxing scenes. I want my imaginiation back please.

    I have been soured by mindless, selfish, lazy writers

    StevieK spot on!!!
    You asked “Why did the Final 5 cylons (who actually turned out to be the original five cylons), lose themselves among humans and repressed who they actually were (Cylons) for so long?” Exactly. The entire final 5 thing turned out to be- Nothing

    Just a way to get them to stand together with their hands in a bath only for Tyrol to lose his monkey (like he was innocent eh), only for it to get aborted and mean…….nothing.

    This is the proof that the writers did not know where they were going and made it up as they went along, and were so obnoxious that they opted with their own endings instead of what fans on line had for them as a better more realistic and more logical ending

    >>>>Not Cool Says: Fine we the FANS will write our own damn ending! Amen to that. See above re the lazy writers.
    >>>>Sofrakkingsa: problem I have is THAT the show’s fans could have done better than all those writers in the room…………………You sum it up for me, and that is what is so disappointing. Here I am thinking ALL the storylines and meaning I have assumed are probably just wrong and never even contemplated.
    >>>>>Instead of wasting time with flashbacks Hot for Teacher/Lap Dance/Drunk Barfing/Pigeon Chasin
    THEY SOLD US OUT. Clearly they had no scruples about wasted all of our time selling a new series at the expense of finishing BSG properly. I hope the new one fails and the writers learn some respect.I for one am not interested in what these BSG characters progenitors ended up as- pointless, selfish, megalomaniacs, adulterers, drunks and fascists. What, I’m going to see Baltars father and a young Baltar am I, with all the baggage of the stupid ending of him on 6 walking around 150,000 years later.
    And I’m going to see a young Tygh as well. Knowing that he has implanted himself into humanity so that 50 years later he and 4 others who miraculously survived the destruction of Caprica to come together by music and learn that they were the creators of the enemies of their supposed society- and all that went with that- only so that they could be at a place in time to stick their hands in a bathtub for a few moments until one of them went troppo because a mere human was flushed out an air lock along the way . He wouldn’t have programmed himself with a better reaction to that?

    THEY HAD NO FRAKKIN IDEA, and that’s what makes it so sad. We were betrayed by them

    RDM do the right thing. Re shoot it, and make the spin off from there, not a love story about 2 families before it. Nobody wants Days of Our Lives. We want Sci Fi, Cylons, mystery, enemies, hunters, alients, FTL jumps and mutinees.

  164. Grant

    This was hinted at by a few posters, but it is for me probably the most jarring aspect of the finale.

    The whole, sudden, “back to basics” thing was more than just silly because nobody would have bought it, or because nobody argued. The implications of it are extraordinary. It is, essentially, the suicide of a civilization. Having left no trace but some bones in the ground, that implies that their culture and civilization decayed and died. If it had thrived in any sense, it would either still be here, or it would have left traces. All the art, all the literature, science, medicine, music…gone. The whole show they spend fighting for the survival of their civilization. And then…”Never mind. We give up. Without a fight.” All for nothing.

    Sheesh. What a suicide fetish.

  165. Coop

    “Poor bloody caveman. It’s all been a bit of a waste of time for you, hasn’t it?” Arthur Dent, approx 2 million years ago.

    Sorry, 12 Colonies, but the Golgafrincham’s cocked everything up long before you came along…

  166. The final episode reminded me so much of the new seasons of Doctor Who. As in it had Russel T “Rework The Dead!” Davis’ signature all over it. Mr Rework believes (or at least writes) that there is something unchanging and eternal about human society. Hence a trillion years in the future, humans still look like humans. Two thousand years in the past, (in this script) Romans do not talk about slavery, or death sports, or leaving newborn babies on the midden heaps. Unfortunately this is bullshit to anyone who actually knows about real history.

    “All of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again.” Okay fine, history repeats itself. To a limited extent. But things and people still change, still advance, still ‘level up’. WWII is the only war so far to end with nukes. Other wars in the future may end that way, but that will always be unlike any previous war, for that reason. I’ll accept the identical language, guns, and clothing as poetic license, and budget limits. But what else has changed?

    Well, nothing apparently. Humanity is not simply approaching a point of development, (true AI creation) but some carefully choreographed carbon-copy cookie-stamp predestined disaster. Apparently no matter how hard we try we have no capacity for avoiding this. What a depressing view of the human species. Of course there might be a reason…

    “Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.” Okay. New planet. New Start. Possibly the biggest use of The Almighty Reset Button in all the history of TV land. Except… The colonials landed 75 THOUSAND human generations ago, assuming 20 years per generation. Jesus (allegedly) lived/died 2000 years ago. That’s 100 human generations. Our oral memory of this time is non existent. The only reason we remember anything about that time is written records and physical evidence. And *that* only lasts another 8 thousand years. Beyond that there’s nothing except bones. Time destroys history. It destroys our memory of history. By throwing away all their technology the colonials also ensured all their accumulated knowledge of history would also be thrown away. Their decedents to learn everything from scratch, make the same mistakes and gambles and risks all over again.

    And this monumentally stupid decision is made just four years after they barely avoided complete extinction by the skin of their teeth!

    Where was the payoff for the human/cylon fantastic-racism from the last four years? They’ve been growing and learning as a culture and I was looking forward to the pay off, the better society they create. The decision to live together as equals. The accomplishment! The anything! Any change, and development, any evolution! Anything but Reworking the same Dead concepts and Dead characters over and over again because the writers are too stupid to come up with anything else.

    By contrast I’ve no trouble accepting Head Baltar and Head Six. They’ve been characters through the past four seasons. The original series had hyper advanced aliens. What I object to is the, “Move Along! Nothing To See Here!” nature they are granted. The implication is that they are not just unexplained, but unexplainable. That’s very anti science. As is contriving to get rid of resurrection technology. (Sour grapes anyone?) And their ‘lesser’ technology. And contriving to get rid of the robotic centurions. Someone on the writing team has issues with Purity methinks.

    I liked the space battle, though the Cylon colony seemed to be suffering from a bad case of Deathstar Empty Corridor syndrome. And the last five minutes weren’t too objectionable by themselves. A little video footage of military combat robots might not have been amiss though.

    But again the problem is everything in between. The complete rejection of both science and the concept of social progress. It’s kinda sad really, when the Terminator series produces a episode better then the Galactica finale.

  167. After reading most of these comments, I’m amazed that Ron Moore, David Eick et al are getting hammered this way. I, for one of the few, applaud Ron and David, the writers, and the actors. I thought the series and the finale were brilliant and satisfying. Remember, this is bascially Ron Moore’s vision. He allowed us to take a ride on his story. He knew where he wanted to start – with the basics of the original Galactica story – and he knew where he wanted to end – present day earth with technology advancing rapidly toward artificial intelligence. The overarching premise of “all this has happened before and will happen again” was brought home by the Times Square scene. I have to laugh at the people bothered by the inexplicable disappearance of Kara as too open ended but decry the obviousness of the robot images on the news snippets.

    If you didn’t like the way the details were tied up or not tied up, tell you what, come up with your own story. Go ahead and write out a synopsis and try to sell it to a producer (I’m assuming you don’t have the resources or the cinematic reputation to float it on your own). IF you get past that, then try to find a network to commit to multiple episodes with an appropriate budget to do it justice, hire the right actors, assemble a writing staff (assuming you’re not going to write every word yourself), create sets, on and on and on. It’s a monumental task. You can’t just sit on the couch and phone it in every week. Oh, and when you do get to your finale, do you think everyone will love it? Pffft. Are you going to tie up every plot line and even the ones contrived by the audience to everyone’s satisfaction? Not if you have any complexity.

    BSG was a character and relationship show. How rare nowadays. Look how human everything turned out in the finale. Tyrol’s rage at Tory and for embracing his misfit status, Adama wanting to finally be alone after being responsible for humanity for years, … I don’t need to spell out everything, do I? Really?

    This is the only television show that I have consistenty watched over the last five years. Nothing, nothing comes close. I certainly have appreciated it.

    Thank you Ron.

  168. Greg

    As a BSG fan, and as many others, we have been waiting for this episode since the announcement that Season 4 would be the last season. When it finally arrived, I’m glad to know that I’m not alone in saying I was very disappointed in it. The entire series, including Season 4, was so well written that I could not believe that the final episode ended like this. So many questions left unanswered or untouched. Reading all the threads above have shared by opinion. Why end it like this? Many questions left to be interpreted by the viewer or for us to accept that “it was God who did it.” I don’t think it was bad writing, because it’s been the same writers from the start. They had done such a fantastic job up to this point. I think it’s because they got too lazy in the end. They just wanted it over and done with. It’s just disappointing.

  169. metyr

    The ending sucked, really, really bad.

    please leave other peoples sci fi stuff alone, MrMoore.

  170. CaliforniaDreaming

    WAAAAAH! I wanna be spoon fed all the explanations! I want “good” writing that spells out clearly and unambiguously what everything REALLY meant! I want everything tied up in a neat little package so my little brain won’t be tasked to think!!!!! WAAAAH! Oooh, I’m so disappointed!!! I wanted the ending to be a Pyramid ball game between the humans and Cylons, with the Centurions as referees! WAAAAH!!!!!

  171. boyd

    well said Metyr
    Lest we forget, RDM did not come up with this franchise.
    He took an existing concept, took it to the heights of space, and then threw it in the sun. Why did he think he had the right to trample on it like he did?

  172. Alphaman

    Such a weak ending. I was so looking forward to a nice, untidy, open-ended finale, with questions left dangling that we could THINK about, but no. Instead, we get an anti-technology rant, and a super simple answer in “God done it”. Don’t ask any other questions, because no matter which way you look, the answer is “God done it”. God killed humanity on the 12 Colonies through his angel Baltar that was seduced by his other angel 6. God led Kara to Earth to kill her, then replace her with a doppelganger. Hera was a false lead and offered nothing other than a plot device to have the humans finally beat the Cylons by accidentally (God did it) destroying the colony with nukes.

    The only questions come from fans who came up with a better ending than the writers.

    This series was like taking a backwards vacation, where you travel from a beautiful beach to the slums.

    I loved the first couple seasons. I think I fell asleep more watching episodes in season 3 than any of the others. I had high hopes for season 4. But this ending, with its disjointed segments, the pointless and inconsistent flashbacks, outright denial of plot lines established in season 1, the actor-written parts, the admission by the writers that they didn’t really have an ending and just wanted to tie things up? Pathetic. Lame. Disappointing.

    This finale rivals the botched rush job done on Star Trek Enterprise.

    I was waiting to buy a boxed set of Blu-Rays for this series. Now, I can’t stand the thought of it, solely because of this fractured cop-out of an ending — I’d rather buy Enterprise. At least with that series, the writers tried.

    I’m going to go erase my DVR, and remove the word “frak” from my vocabulary. Total bull felgercarb.

  173. Desi's Brother

    I have already posted on this thread extensively.

    All I can say is PLEASE DON’T LET LOST’s FINALE SUCK LIKE BSG.

    The more this finale sinks in the more disappointed I am by it. I don’t know how anyone could think that the fans would not be rapidly opposed to this ending. It was lame in the extreme.

    It sacrificed everything that made the show great. The ethical and moral decision to abandone your entire culture and technology in favour of going back to the land in the most extreme way is nothing short of embracing a utopian future. It is not a light decision and there is no way that the entire fleet would agree to do it. It is rediculous. How can a show that just had a brilliant Gaeta lead Coup turn around and make everyone do the same thing. What were they thinking!??????

  174. Kate

    What’s with all the finale-apologists saying that anyone who didn’t like the ending is stupid and just didn’t like it because they didn’t get all the answers?

    Personally, I’d rather have no answers than really, really stupid answers. Leaving some things open to interpretation is a legitimate and often very effective writing strategy. (Hell, I’m in the minority that liked The Sopranos finale.) The problem with the BSG finale is that the questions they attempted to answer had been left lingering too long. There was just too much unanswered, which leads me to believe that they had procrastinated deciding what things meant (the opera house, new Kara, Hera’s significance) and how they fit into the final story, until the last few episodes. The result was a sloppy mash-up of whatever would kind of work. Character decisions stopped being based on actual logical motivations, and turned into them doing whatever was necessary to advance the plot.

    RDM claims the finale was about characters, but I don’t see that. The flashbacks were pedantic. Look, we’ve had four years with these characters already. If there’s some vital part of their character that hasn’t yet been revealed and needs to be in flashbacks in the final episode, that is a failure on the part of the writers. And there wasn’t even anything very necessary in the flashbacks, anyway. What exactly is the point of showing us the choices they all made that lead them to Galactica, when the whole theme of the finale is that choice doesn’t matter, only fate does? Beyond the flashbacks, the characters were little more than puppets, as RDM tried to squeeze as much sense out of the mysteries/prophecies as he could.

    BSG originally walked a fine and interesting line between fate and free will. Part of this came from the ambiguities. Did Roslin really have visions, or were they just drug haullucinations? Was Baltar nuts or was head!Six really the voice of God? One of the themes of BSG early on was that all we can reasonably do is to act on what we believe to be true. Yet at the end, that didn’t matter, “fate” just figured everything out for everybody. I was very much hoping that BSG would leave the question “Is there a God/God-like being?” unanswered. Doubt is so much more interesting.

  175. malclave

    How depressing.

    Okay, so “Head Baltar”, “Head Six”, and Kara Thrace are just like the people from the Ship of Light from TOS. Fine, though I think it was lazy to throw Kara in there like that.

    And “Head Six” may claim to be optimistic about the cycle being broken, but why? The humans are still creating new cylons (AI robots) and the cylons have had millenia to develop new “skin jobs” after the centurions took off on their base ship.

    So, free will does not exist.

    I have TOS on DVD, and between DVDs and Amazon downloads have TNS as well. Sure, TNS is technically better, better written, and better acted, but I’m sure I’ll be watching TOS much more often. Because it’s more entertaining, and not so pessimistic about humanity.

  176. CaliforniaDreaming

    The more people who trash the finale, the more convinced I am of how brilliant it was. After all, the majority is usually wrong, yes? (Example: George W. Bush was elected – TWICE! LOL!!!!!!)

  177. Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

    I don’t think the writers were on drugs. I do think they missed a few things. I do think they made a bad decision to drop the show in the 4th year because a lot of back story could have been written in one more year to tie up loose ends. I also think that caused a little self imposed damage that happened to Babylon 5 way back in the day when the networks canceled and and told J.M.S. to wrap up the story arc sooner than he had anticipated.

    I will go back and watch it again. I will probably see threads that don’t connect and maybe a few Battlestar sized plot holes.

    But in the end, it was a good ride. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I laughed and cried. I took this away from it. Many of the characters had a role to play in the saga. Some were obvious. Some were not-so-obvious. Some just needed to be at the right place at the right time. A lot of being a hero or a foil to a plot (or to life) has to do with being at the right place at the right time. I’m glad that Hera was just a little girl. I’m glad that Baltar’s redemption ultimately came down to a single, self-sacrificing choice that even he didn’t believe was right. I’m glad that Adama finally slunk away. It was very sad, but it also fit. Same with Apollo. I really wanted him to get with Starbuck, but that would have been stupid cheezy, and ultimately glad that it ended with him staring at empty space. Gut wrenching. Not fair. Not at all nice. But it had to be that way. Starbuck vanishing wasn’t that far-fetched. There are stories throughout the ages of a helping “angel” who comes in at the right moment, helps someone along, gets them to where they need to be, only to be … nothing … a ghost. It made my hair stand up on end. Rosalyn was going to die. We all knew that. She did see the new world but not REALLY get a chance to enjoy it. Okay, so she did physically set foot on it, but not for long. I call that close enough to Moses to count. Prophecy isn’t usually exactly right.

    I won’t give too much thought to the one thing that did bug me…why weren’t the rendezvous coordinates, in the navicomputer? I’m hoping because they got blasted to hell, but that’s a small piece.

    And I’m ESPECIALLY glad that the bug-eyed monsters didn’t have special laser-beam head-gear and psycho mind frack powers with telekinesis where only a jargonic-jargon device could stop their evil plot! I get enough of that with Dr. Who! :)

  178. will

    This was a very good ending to a great show, my olny regreat is that its over. Reading many of these post many people here seem to be pretty smart, so use your imagination to the ending it made perfect sence by LEE’S statement.”give them the best part of ourselves”
    If you followed the story line over 150000 we evolved.. there were humans and cylons(skin Jobs), after 150000 its concluded that they are us and we are them, there desendants. If you think about it in teh other earth they didnt show any land mass that could be idintified, so that wasnt really earth (our earth) Earth was meant to be a place for a new begining so as with the 13th tribe had there earth, we have ours. I think the old man made a short statement to that comment at the end.. It was clear to me ..

  179. Abbadon

    WOW im shocked and dismayed.

    first off, all of the posts here have been intelligent and thought provoking. I respect the opinions out there.

    BUT Ron Moore does NOT care what we as fans think or feel. His arrogance in his interviews shines through. He told the story he wanted to tell. TO bad for us, huh. On to the rest of the stories… but wait Caprica is coming out on dvd first $$$$$$$. How much money and time did you invest in this series? Think he cares about how the next one will end?
    This ending is not even his Idea…look at his 2007 blog about the Sopranos..then compare the endings ring any bells? How about ds9 and the attitude of the beings in the wormhole and Cisco’s roll in it. sound slightly familiar. he spent time to make a bible for the show then throw it out at the last minute.
    I will no longer watch nor purchase anything that Ron Moore has a hand in. I cannot even watch old episodes, because everything the characters do is irrelevant. I tried, and i found myself heckling the characters. yes its just a TV show; but after a hard week delving into a mystery and thought provoking show was a joy. Now i feel like after reading the mystery tome of 78+hours that the last page is torn out. Or worse being told the butler did it but now explaining how what why.
    I have spent days shredding the ending with my friends. Then the series. They are all disappointed. we as fans were sacrificed on his alter of interesting. As an artist I am well aware of the subjectivity and relevance that people bring to any art form. That one must strive to evoke a response. BUT every canvas has boundaries. You don’t go painting on the gallery walls to obscure or be opaque that your masterpiece is signed in finger paint.
    Art is about breaking the rules, not the planes of your own paradigm.
    I feel betrayed because the characters i enjoyed, did not act true to their nature.
    that in their weakest moments they did not find the strength….
    or worse no reaction at all. that evil did not pay for its sins. under either set of gods.
    love not only denied but disappeared. That characters became wishy washy play things to outside force. It is a disgrace.
    Well i guess i will take a page from Mr. Moore and stop caring.

    Ron Moore my hat off to you for a great series, My foot up your lame arrogant ass for a cop out ending! JACK ASS!

  180. “What’s with all the finale-apologists saying that anyone who didn’t like the ending is stupid and just didn’t like it because they didn’t get all the answers?!”

    What’s with all the finale-bashing hypocrites? What is so “hokey” about the answers here when most sci-fi has hokey answers? Hypocrites left, right, and center, that’s all it comes down to.

    There are no stupid answers, just stupid people.

  181. “Returning to new Earth they should have had Adama and Rosalin fly over the African Savannah they way they did, but have her die before ever stepping foot on the planet. It would have been tragic and poetic and it would have furfilled the prophecy that the leader never lives to see the homeland (or whatever)”

    Yo, IDIOT…

    ROSLYN NEVER SET FOOT ON THE HILL HER DREAM HOUSE WAS PROMISED TO BE, THAT WAS HER “PROMISED LAND”, NOT EARTH, THE PROPHECY NEVER MEANT “EARTH” AS FAR AS SHE WAS CONCERNED.

    ANOTHER classic example of FAKE FANS not looking deep enough into the very show they claim to love, but are now exposed for all to see as WORTHLESS FRAKING MALCONTENTS WHO NEVER UNDERSTOOD THE SHOW IN THE FIRST PLACE. FRAK YOU.

  182. Gary

    The prophecy of the dying leader to me, means that the good ship Battlestar was in fact the Dying leader, not Rosilin. It makes sense when you think about it. The ship was dying and it lead them to earth.

    I also feel they held back on the story resolution so they can add them to Caprica when the ratings start lagging!

  183. Sofrakkingsad

    “WAAAAAH! I wanna be spoon fed all the explanations! I want “good” writing that spells out clearly and unambiguously what everything REALLY meant! I want everything tied up in a neat little package so my little brain won’t be tasked to think!!!!! ” (CaliforniaDreaming’s rant)

    Okay CaliforniaDreaming. Do tell how your large brain made sense of all the loose ends…. or justified the dropped stories, or explained Starbuck’s disappearance, for just one example…

    People watch tv shows for the intriguing and inexplicable stuff, sure, but it’s only smart and enjoyable if it makes sense. Starbuck’s disappearance, the opera house, that little scene when D’Anna sees the beings of light and says “oh I’m sorry”… what the hell was that? Hera, who was she and how the hell did she know the music to the song or that the song would lead them to a new planet… how the hell did the song play in the remaining cylons’ heads…. The list goes on. None of these things make any sense and so they become stupid and useless.

  184. CaliforniaDreaming

    “Sofrakkingsad Says:
    March 24th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
    “Okay CaliforniaDreaming. Do tell how your large brain made sense of all the loose ends…. or justified the dropped stories, or explained Starbuck’s disappearance, for just one example…”

    Okay, I’d suggest reading Matt’s posts from March 21st. He has some very insightful ideas, and he is much more articulate than I will ever pretend to be.

    But the point I was trying to make is that Moore has actually given all of us an opportunity to exercise our own imaginations in trying to fill in the gaps, or make sense of the ambiguities. And isn’t life itslf full of gaps and ambiguities? Life itself doesn’t have tidy closures and fully explained events. For example, the Kennedy assasination is still being debated, as well as Pearl Harbor, 9-11, etc.

    So, while it might have been momentarily satisfying for everything in the Battlestar universe to have been logically explained, and all the dropped story lines played out to heartwarming and touching ends, that ain’t the way that life itself generally works.

    Just my two cents. Sorry about sounding sarcastic in my previous posts. I was a bit vexed by all the negativity aimed at Moore.

  185. Mikelus

    I hated it! They didn’t explained everything the way I wanted, even though I’m Mr. Nobody Loser, I could’ve done a much better job than Moore & his fellow hackers blah blah blah……
    [Mr. Nobody Loser mode off]

    Seriously, some need to be wiser and more tolerant instead of repeating the cycle of hate. ;-)

    Great finale, one of the best endings in TV history for one of the best series of all time.

    Frak the haters!

  186. Sofrakkingsad

    Whatever Mikelus. I’m happy you enjoyed the finale, but frak your sarcasm… Since when do people have to abandon their opinions or else they get called “haters” or “Mr.Nobody Loser”?? Must everyone think the same way? You a Bushite? (emphasis on the *shite*)?

  187. Mother of 3 hyper tots

    Okay, I have taken the time to search for answers to plot holes, read the interviews, and laughed at the far ranging comments (+ to -). First of all, I could not sleep all night and was confused looking for answers as well.

    After reading everything this morning, I realized, some of my fav. shows had horrible series finales; Sex and the City, Seinfield, Transformers, MASH, Star Trek, etc. What that really means is the finale did it’s job; left the audience craving. For those who read a good book, you want a sequel, you do not want your imagination, the fantasy, what you were reading to end. Same to those who watch serials; you come home from work, put the kids to sleep, take a break from your life; you seek to run away into the lives of those on television. Is that not what Gene Roddenberry, creator of Star Trek had done? Now I know how those individuals felt when Star Trek ended on TV. Even kuddos to Ian Fleming, creator of 007, who left us always wanting to see another Bond better request martinis.

    Well, we already have the movie The Plan. Then the comic book series; the Final Five. The series Caprica (not sure if that will fill a BSG void). In either way I will truly miss BSG and hope anything that follows will not funk up the coolest show ever!

  188. Kate

    Dude, David Blyth, what is your problem? Is your sense of self-worth so deeply tied to Battlestar Galactica that you can’t accept that reasonable people disliked your precious?

    Lol @ “worthless malcontents.” Frak you, dissent is an essential part of a democratic society. You know, the type of society the colonists went out of their way to preserve and then totally jettisoned in the last episode?

    But I’m sure you must have a very different view of the finale, since you watched it from way up in Moore’s ass.

  189. Pistachio T Wildebeest

    I don’t have much to add to the many comments about the “resolution,” save to say that the best description I have heard is,

    “emotionally satisfying, but intellectually empty.”

    Otherwise, a lot of events seem to occur simply to force pieces into place. For instance, in order for there to be no evidence of an alien culture appearing in Tanzania 150kyear ago, all the Colonials are _required_ to leave no trace of advanced technology. So their decision happens for that (teleological) reason rather than emerging naturally from their circumstances. And so on.

    It’s not surprising that a lot of people are disappointed. It’s not like spending a week reading a hard SF book which suddenly declares that A Wizard Did It in the last quarter (which prompts you to then throw said book across the room.) It’s something people watched and talked about for six years, and at its best could stand next to good written SF. Its resolution depended on diverting the series into an entirely different genre. If it was clear from the beginning that it was set in a Magical Universe where people die and pop back to life, and not the “gritty and realistic world” in which it was often said to be set, then there would be a lot less disappointment.

    For instance, a central point of the series was that there would be “no technobabble,” yet the resolution to numerous mysteries and plot threads relied explicitly on babble. It doesn’t matter whether that babble takes the form of inverse tachyon polarizers, gods or alien space bats, it’s still inexplicable babble. So regardless of whether that was the intent from the start, it inevitably appears that having painted themselves into a corner, the writers have Q turn up and save the day.

  190. WhatTheFrak

    So our intergalactic travelers are going to mate with the locals. Savages whom don’t have the concept of bathing, or dentristry, or even removal of unwanted body hair. Not to mention, language. Kind of like mating with an ape.

    Really?

  191. I was disappointed they didn’t run into Wolfman Jack like in the first BSG, but whatever. Without modern conveniences and technology, these people would not have fared very well on prehistoric Earth. Not being previously adapted, exposure to an environment of predatory animals, hostile humans, insects, bacteria, climate and so on would quickly do most of them in. Even eastern settlers in 19th century western US had huge fatality rates. Just imagine how it would be for these guys.

  192. Archer

    I’ve got it!! The two Battlestar series are directly tied together. That’s the cycle of time!

    The Reimagined-BG is actually the first series to occur in galactic history. The Cylons of the Original-BG are the “descendants” of the Centurions who left in the Basestar. Remember, there were other survivors in the Colonies after the war. Maybe some the civilian ships abandoned by Helena Cain managed to set down on “New Kobol” and formed the Colonial civilization we saw in the first series while Iblis corrupted the Cylons.

    BTW when you think about it the nuked “Earth” is an homage to the OS episodes “Greetings from Earth” and “Experiment in Terra”. There was also very strong speculation then that Terra was Earth.

  193. Jerry Z

    I agree that head Balter is supposed to be God. I thought Baltar when he was saying ?silly me? he was referring that he was God, and why would he say ?he does?nt like to be called that?. His response, ?silly, silly me?. He knows he?s god, yet he?s referring to himself as if he?s not, so ?silly me? seems appropriate for him to say.

  194. Confused

    OK, if the Final Five came back to find the Cylon war raging, and offered the Cylons resurrection technology, how come Col. Tigh (one of the final five) was fighting alongside Bill Adama during the Cylon War? Also, how did Ellen and Boomer find the colonial fleet so easily after leaving Brother Cavill? Since Boomer was working for Cavill, evidently Cavill was able to track the fleet all along. Doesn’t make any sense.

  195. vel

    Amen, pistachio t wildebeest. Best post about this train wreck of a tv show I’ve seen.

  196. Dmitrii

    @ Jeff – 100% agreed. No one could not have possibly said it better. I feel extremely ripped off for having invested so much time into watching and caring about this show. The thing that really irks me is that they attempted to cover up all the unresolved plotlines with high production value. It’s just insulting to my intelligence for them to assume that I wouldn’t see right through that little trick. Shame on you RDM. I just hope Lost doesnt end the same way, though I have a bad feeling that it will…

  197. Jeff B.

    I have to agree with Jeff. I was very dissappointed with the end finale. I felt like nothing was resolved with the Kara story.

    I felt the decision to send all there tech into the sun in favor of living in tents and grass/mud huts was a bit much to believe that everyone would have been happy with this decision. I certianly wouldn’t have been. Granted, living on the ships in small cramped quarters wasn’t very comfortable, but it would be far more preferable to living on the earth with no running water, no automated waste disposal.

    Pretty much everything Jeff said is spot on….

  198. What I want to know is why does the new Galactica dislike black people so? The two primary black character from the original were turned into a white guy and an asian woman; Athena kills herself; and the black cylon gets his head splattered in the last episode,… In fact, as far as I can tell, not a single black person makes it to Earth. They even have the indian cylon get strangled,… Do the producers hate colored people that much? Seems like it to me.

  199. ForsakenBSG.Fan

    I am sooooo dissapointed :(

    Jeff nailed it earlier. The holes with Kara being the Harbinger of Death (DEATH, not some metaphoric cop-out), Cavill commiting suicide — I would have loved to see Ellen fill him full of lead while crying her eyes out — and all the other holes others have pointed out just left me rolling my eyes thinking: These guys have ruined BSG for me the way Rick Berman & Co. Ruined Star Trek (I hope JJ Abrams brings back the love btw)

    They said it themselves in the special (“It’s the characters stupid”). Ok fine I get that, but you screwed that up as well.

    Don’t create and buildup plot lines (Opera House, Prophecies of Pythia, Harbingers) and let them fall flat. Even Katee Sackoff said she hated her character this season before she was lead to doubt her instincts and drink the writer’s cool-aid.

    I loved the miniseries that started this all, it was kick-ass. I remember how campy the original series was and felt so gratified that they re-wrote it and gave it a more realistic flavor.

    But I think they took themselves too seriously and got lost inside their own world. Artistic integrity is one thing but you need to have some to begin with. I gave up on the show toward the end of the series. Between the long hiatuses and the confusing twists… anyone else get lost with all the boomers running around? (Not to mention the webisodes) … I breathed a big sigh of disappointment. I didnt much care anymore.

    Hey here’s an alternate ending idea: How about the Neanderthals on Earth #2 hijack Adama’s Raptor (ala Battlefield Earth) and FTL into the future and b*tch-slap the writers (ala Stewie Griffin slapping Will Farrell around)

  200. Grant

    Disappointing. It’s sad to witness such a missed opportunity. How often do you have such acting talent, visual effects, music, and (in some stretches) outstanding writing all come together on the same show? So rare. Even if you’re satisfied with the conclusion, I think it’s very difficult to look very far beneath the surface and claim that the show delivered on its promise.

    I’ll lump my concerns into three categories: Authenticity, Logic, and Emotional Satisfaction.

    Authenticity – The actions of the characters have to be consistent with what has come before. Spock doesn’t just show up one day telling jokes.

    Logic – Authenticity is about character. Logic is about whether things even make sense. It’s about plot holes. It’s about things either not being explained, or the explanations contradicting obvious logic.

    Emotional Satisfaction – A more subjective category. Whether you were satisfied with the show depends on what elements of the show you most connected with, and how those elements were resolved. Reading the posts, many found the conclusion satisfying. Far from being critical of this, I am envious. For someone who doesn’t watch much TV, I spent a lot of time watching this show, and wish I were in your shoes.

    There are many elements of the show to pick apart, but here’s what rings with me:

    Adama. He apparently abandons everyone to live a life as a hermit? Inauthentic, unexplained, irrational. I’m still confused by it. I enjoyed following his character, so this is particularly disappointing for me.

    Abandoning technology. The colonial fleet had a big raging debate about whether to even settle on New Caprica. Not only is there no debate about whether to settle on Earth (which there should be, since there are lots of Cylons still out there), but there’s also no debate about the (bizarre) decision to abandon technology. Inauthentic, illogical.

    Outcome for the fleet. This was a show not afraid to wander into the dark. It would put the characters through crisis after tragedy after setback, with few and short lived triumphs in between. If you’re going to do that, at the end there must be growth, a new beginning, and hope for a new and lasting future. For me, it is inescapable that the final choice of the colonial civilization (abandoning tech, splitting up) amounted to mass cultural suicide, and that whatever they built was not lasting. The writers wanted that final series payoff to be that they are our ancestors, but in order for that to be true, while leaving no traces, their civilization must have died off without much achievement or fanfare. What on earth (pun intended) is the point of caring for these characters for four years if this is what ultimately happens? Deeply unsatisfying.

    Human/Cylon Conflict. Never really resolved. Illogical, unsatisfying. The Cavil that shot himself is only one of many, right? How many Cavils and basestars are still out there? I guess we’re just supposed to assume that they won’t find earth, and they’ll all die out.

    Starbuck. Ok, I can accept that they’ve included the explicit influence of a higher/other/greater power/god. But powerful stories are built not on what a higher power/god does for his/her/its own mysterious purposes, but on what human beings do, what motivates them, and what choices they make. To the extent that they rely on the higher power/god to solve plot issues and motivate events, the story is weakened. Not necessarily illogical or inauthentic (they did lay groundwork for this), but it is Unsatisfying.

    Hera. I suppose she was key in that if Cavil keeps her, Cylon civilization lives on. And she was apparently the catalyst for an advance in evolution on earth. But beyond that she was just a little girl, as far as the other characters were concerned. For all the energy and screen time spent talking about and agonizing over her fate and her uniqueness, it seems to me that it implied that there was something more to her. Unsatisfying.

    I could go on, as others in various forums had. I find the ultimate end of our heroes, stuck on a planet with no technology, little hope of a bright future, and Cylons still roaming the universe, to be bleak and unsatisfying. I find that central conflicts in the story were not adequately resolved. I find that for a show built in part on mysteries and unknown plans (“they have a plan”, we were told every week), the resolution to these mysteries was either simplistic, missing, or contradictory.

    To answer a common critique of apologists for the show: Am I just disappointed that I didn’t get all the answers handed to me on a silver platter? Well, we don’t know what happened to Frodo after he got on that boat. But we know that Sauron was defeated, and that Sam married a nice girl, that Aragorn becomes king, and humanity was free to build a new future. The ending to BSG leaves open far more questions that it answers. We don’t know what happened to Sauron, we have no idea who the king is, and all we know about the fate of Gondor is that thousands of years later there was no detectable trace of it.

    Leave some stuff open to interpretation, speculation…ok. But you have to answer most of the questions in an authentic, logical, and emotionally satisfying way.

    Ah, well.

  201. Robert

    I agree with Kate. I’ve been truing to make that point over and over in a couple of other places. What ought to have been left ambiguous was “explained” and what ought to have been “explained” was left ambiguous. I also agree with Jeff, Grant and those that agree with them. Finally, its not that generally the people that hate the God- did- it ending are annoyed because they are atheists or agnostics, it is because having a God resolve the narrative is a cop-out. No only doesn’t It answer anything, it tells us the writers didn’t know what the answers are. And leaving the viewer with having to fill in their own answers to smooth over the plot holes is not “deep” it is just a reflection of bad writing.

  202. Starwatcher16253647

    Well, I agree with the sentiment that the ending was weak.

    I have always thought BSG was at its best when dealing with the politics of the fleet (Worker’s Rights,Black Market,etc,etc.) trying to survive in this terrible situation without tearing itself apart, and at it’s worst when dealing with prophecy and God.

    I am agnostic on the whole God thing, but I am strongly against using God as a plot device, just seems like lazy writing to me. When you use God as a plot device, you can pull just about anything you want out form your ass and just claim “it’s all part of the plan”.

    On another note, the amount of referencing in the show to ancient culture was splendid.

  203. Starwatcher16253647

    To be more clear, I think many of the short 1-3 episode arcs were some of the best television I have ever seen, while the larger seasonal arcs being merely passable.

  204. tbird

    Can someone explain one little thing to me? Whatever Head 6 and Head Baltar were…why do they look like “real” 6 and “real Baltar”? What is the relationship between the clueless “real” characters and the omniscient “head” characters?

  205. SpaceGuy

    Parts of me liked the ending, and parts of me remains disappointed. In the end it is a television show. I am somewhat saddened that at the very beginning the writers didn’t know how this would end. It seems they were making most of it as they went along. This is not how Babylon 5 was – although I enjoyed Galactica a lot more.

    BSG had very memorable writing and acting. Because of its scripting, direction, pace and acting, I didn’t watch like a science-fiction show. Roslin had cancer, not some weird disease, something viewers could relate to. Some Cylons died after exposure to common Influenza. They used nuke, not photon torpedoes.

    I am still awed by the show’s SFX, designs and sets. How the characters interacted with it. At their attempt to use the laws of physics to the advantage of the storytelling in space battles – although they were some botched moments near the end. I was so glad to finally see the engine room of Galactica. The storytelling was not always perfect, but this was one heck of a cool TV show. I suspect it will inspire others to imitate and emulate it in so many ways – and I look forward to that.

  206. notha

    The final BSG episode sucked ass, it was awful, the story line got tossed out the window, what a disappointment. Could they have fracked it up any worse ?

  207. CaliforniaDreaming

    I’d like to take a stab at answering some of Grant’s points from March 29th. I hope I won’t sound like I’m being sarcastic in any of my answers. I’m trying to be sincere –

    “There are many elements of the show to pick apart, but here’s what rings with me:

    Adama. He apparently abandons everyone to live a life as a hermit? Inauthentic, unexplained, irrational. I’m still confused by it.” To me, it’s not very confusing. I don’t recall ever seeing Adama acting gregariously with the crew. Was there ever a scene of him at the Officer’s club? Or hosting a crew dining-in? He was mostly either on the bridge or in his stateroom, and didn’t have a lot of visitors. Frankly, he strikes me as a loner, and his decision to become a hermit doesn’t seem out of character.

    “Abandoning technology. The colonial fleet had a big raging debate about whether to even settle on New Caprica. Not only is there no debate about whether to settle on Earth (which there should be, since there are lots of Cylons still out there), but there’s also no debate about the (bizarre) decision to abandon technology. Inauthentic, illogical.” Well, it wouldn’t be the first time in human history that humans have abandoned a higher standard of living. The Mayans, for example, appear to have abandoned their sophisticated urban lives (reasons are not entirely clear) and went back to a simpler existence. In any case, the BSG episode probably should have included more debate about this decision, but maybe the DVD will have some deleted scenes restored? But I can sympathize with the decision – their technology had only brought them to a state of fear and loathing. Maybe it was time to try something else.

    “The writers wanted that final series payoff to be that they are our ancestors, but in order for that to be true, while leaving no traces, their civilization must have died off without much achievement or fanfare. What on earth (pun intended) is the point of caring for these characters for four years if this is what ultimately happens? Deeply unsatisfying.” Yes, human history is actually full of localized civilizations who have essentially died off without much surviving achievement or fanfare. It may be unsatisfying, but it’s the way many civilizations have played out. So, maybe we should regard the characters apart from whatever “higher” achievements their civilization left or didn’t leave. After all, if we only cared about characters in regard to their civilization’s achievements, then I guess we needn’t bother reading any stories about characters who live in nomadic societies.

    “Human/Cylon Conflict. Never really resolved. Illogical, unsatisfying.” Yep. Kinda like the “conflict” between the United States and Cuba. I’m still wondering if the Cuban Commies are gonna become Capitalists eventually, and whether the US Gov’t will end the embargo. Very unsatisfying. Will someone please write a logical conclusion to this conflict? Thanks.

    “But powerful stories are built not on what a higher power/god does for his/her/its own mysterious purposes, but on what human beings do, what motivates them, and what choices they make. To the extent that they rely on the higher power/god to solve plot issues and motivate events, the story is weakened. Not necessarily illogical or inauthentic (they did lay groundwork for this), but it is Unsatisfying.” I guess The Illiad and The Odyssey are unsatisfying from that standpoint, too, since Homer used the capriciousness of the gods as a plot device. Of course, maybe what Homer was saying is that we puny humans are subject to forces beyond our control (whether those forces are personal or impersonal [such as forces of nature], is a matter for you to fit into your own worldview, I guess.)

    “Hera. I suppose she was key in that if Cavil keeps her, Cylon civilization lives on. And she was apparently the catalyst for an advance in evolution on earth. But beyond that she was just a little girl, as far as the other characters were concerned. For all the energy and screen time spent talking about and agonizing over her fate and her uniqueness, it seems to me that it implied that there was something more to her. Unsatisfying.” Hmm. Well, I was pretty well satisfied by the revelation that she was the mitochondrial Eve. That, to me, was pretty cool, and justified the uniqueness that was ascribed to her by the BSG characters, even if they couldn’t foresee that that was her particular destiny. It’s kinda like the legend of the White Buffalo in Plains Indian mythology: you’re not exactly sure what the White Buffalo portends, but when it appears it’s something important!

    “To answer a common critique of apologists for the show: Am I just disappointed that I didn’t get all the answers handed to me on a silver platter? Well, we don’t know what happened to Frodo after he got on that boat. But we know that Sauron was defeated, and that Sam married a nice girl, that Aragorn becomes king, and humanity was free to build a new future.” That’s as may be, but LOTR is, after all, a fairy tale that is aimed, to a certain extent, at kids. I wouldn’t recommend BSG to kids. (And are you absolutely sure that Sauron was defeated? I’m thinking that maybe Sauron reconstituted himself 150,000 year later in the form of Dick Cheney… )

    Anyway, thanks for your post, Grant! As many have said, the fact that the final BSG episode has prompted so much discussion is an indication that it was, at least, thought provoking.

  208. Tom

    “I guess The Illiad and The Odyssey are unsatisfying from that standpoint, too, since Homer used the capriciousness of the gods as a plot device. Of course, maybe what Homer was saying is that we puny humans are subject to forces beyond our control (whether those forces are personal or impersonal [such as forces of nature], is a matter for you to fit into your own worldview, I guess.)”

    While it is true that in Illiad and Odyssey the events are heavily influenced, controlled and sometimes even caused by a Higer Power, Homer (or whoever really wrote them) does explain who or what the Higher Power is (Olympian gods), what its plan is (some gods want Trojans to win, some want Greeks to destroy Troy) and what its motivation is (basically petty rivalries, personal preferences for this human champion or other and female vanity).

    At the end of Galactica we have no idea who or what the Higher Power is. We know that it has some sort of plan, but we do not understand what this plan is nor do we know its purpose. We also know nothing about what motivates this Higher Power. We do not understand the nature of head Baltar and Head Six. We do not understand their role in the plan nor do we understand their relation to “God”. Are they his servants? Do they slavishly follow his orders or do they have free will and sometimes pursue their own agenda?

    I think what makes people angry (myself included) is not really the fact that some sort of Higher Power was pulling the strings behind the scenes, but that we learn nothing about who this Higher Power is and what it wants.

    “That?s as may be, but LOTR is, after all, a fairy tale that is aimed, to a certain extent, at kids. I wouldn?t recommend BSG to kids. (And are you absolutely sure that Sauron was defeated?”

    Tolkien always intended his books to be both for children and adults. His books can be read and analyzed both as simple childrens’s books and complex and layered stories for adults. And yes, Sauron is defeated. He is not killed and the book pretty much says that one day he will come back (Evil can never be truly destroyed), but the peoples of Middle Earth will know at least few centuries of peace.

  209. CaliforniaDreaming

    I want the last word.

    LAST WORD! bwah-hah-hah-hah-hah!!!!!! (maniacal laughter continues unabated for 150,000 years…)

  210. Nightprowl

    I have been reading these comments for awhile and I have to put my 2 cents in. To start, before I forget it, it came to my attention we missed a mild point.

    If you see how things had played humanity on Kobol did something and they had an exodus to the Colonies. Then man created the Cylons, who revolted and warred with man until the left for greener pastures, and the final five. Here in lies my unnoticed claim…”all this has happened before, and all this will happen again” but it didnt happen the way it did before, kind of. I may be losing some of you…

    The 5 came from their Cylon destroyed Clyon world, allied with the toasters and then created the humanoid Cylons…. Man did not cause its end, its exodus, or its arrival on Earth. God or gods didnt even have anything to do with that. The 5 did, they created their race, they are completely at fault for EVERYTHING, except their creation. Although I am pretty sure its safe to say the Kobol Cylon’s are to blame again. So man is not the ones who are designed to destroy themselves, their creations are. Man made Cylon, Cylon made Cylon, Cylon kills Man, Man and Cylon breed, Cylon traits carry on to continue in the halfbreed humanity and its lust for war. Thank you Cylons. And yea the Colonies did have war, but we don’t know enough to say if the war was fought with Cylon Centurions as soldiers or men, we don’t know what the wars were over, we don’t know a fraking thing.

    The other things I wanted to comment on is that I agree with half of the populous here. RDM, my man, did foul up on the end of season 4 and the finale. We were owed more explainations. I would have settled for the arrival to Earth and then cut, but I wanted more explainations about Daniel, Starbuck, Hera, the other Cylons *who all could not have been at the Colony*, Baltar and Six’s “angels”, and the Baltar monotheistic religion/cult/crazies.

    Daniel, wow thanks mention something then never mention it again. “Yes, we do have ice cream, and no I won’t tell you what flavors,” way to dangle a new line of story in our faces. “Let’s see what perfection looks like,” the line that made it…. Caville right there noted that we as viewers were entitled to see Daniel.

    Starbuck’s death and resurrection…with a Viper as well. Well that makes 0 sense. I have nothing, it just was fraking stupid to throw that in there with no support to it. I figured for awhile, MAYBE the 5 had another satellite or ship in orbit that could resurrect, or even other Cylon’s, but that was a stretch. But she gave us nothing, no facts, no proof, just a disappearing act and that a god had something to do with it/everything.

    Adama and Roslin….ok I was satisfied how they ended. Bill was alone, and not in the sense of alone, but he had lost Carolanne, he had lost his old girl…and long before Sam took her for a walk on the sun….but Galactica was dead after the mutiny. Bill had nothing left, he stayed with the only woman he had left, even if it was just her grave.

    Tyrol, thats fine I like his ending of going off to some remote island. He had had enough too, he lost Sharon, he lost Cally, he lost Nicky, and he had nothing left to keep his faith in humanity. He was done and he just wanted to be left alone.

    Baltar and Caprica….well all i can say is damn Caprica can handle the lose of love quick. Baltar, well I have always liked his character because its intricate. So they ended good too.

    Hera…shes mido-eve….come on, thats a petty stretch at best. I don’t believe in that mido-eve crap anyways, to say all women on Earth are of HER blood line….well shit, Eve was the biggest slut of them all if she managed to be the only woman known to existance that everyone can trace back to.

    What about the bodies, structures, CLOTHING, and anything else these people left behind? They were dressed modern, they had zippers and buttons, and velcro, and plastic…and archeologists only find Hera? No other human or Cylon or their stuff? Doubt it.

    The rest of the Cylons….we didnt see any basestars at the Colony and we all know they had several more basestars out there. As well as outposts and everything. So what? The red Centurions went off to explore the universe? Or go blow their brethren to hell?

    There is just way too much that was left to the fans, too much. We can handle one or two important things being open, but when you have everything….EVERYTHING….thats just sad quick finish writing. I love to write, and I never leave long drawn out plot lines open like that. I give subtle closure myself, but closure at least.

    The Plan and Caprica had better cover something that will seal the breaches in the hull of the plot.

    But I will stick with this, BSG has been the best fraking show I have ever come to be addicted to.

  211. Nightprowl

    Noted: In Maelstrom, did anyone else notice that Kara’s mother has Marlboro butts in her ash try? Another inconsistency, one that is simple and subtle, but still…. Marlboro was a cigarette brand 120,000 years ago from another world, and it just so happens to also be a brand of the same design cigarette here? Nope, that is just bad props or a lousy advertisement drop.

  212. Nightprowl

    I have way too much time on my hands to be posting here….

    The Colonials abandoned they’re entire civilization into the sun, all their technology… but what doesnt make complete sense is that maybe a few days before arriving on Earth the (congress? of) Captains are bickering over who would get what from Galactica. Now it seems to me that them, as well as any number of the other 30,000 odd citizens of the fleet would not be so quick to abandon everything they have fought so long and hard to hold on to. After so many years on the run from the Cylons, I don’t think that everyone would be like…”Oh so Adama and Lampkin think we should go native here? Oh yea sounds great let me just ditch my entire life and start over with my zero survive-in-the-wild instincts.”

    And with the other Cylons still out in the Galaxy the only line of defense left is the Free Red Cylons and their basestar…against renegade Caville’s, Doran’s, Simons, and gods know who else. Maybe there was another surviving fleet, maybe that fleet Cain plundered was found by another lucky surviving Battlestar or any FTL military vessel and they travelled through space to find a new world.

    The higher power notion just bugs me, it lacks vision. He means that there was more going on than anyone could figure out, or want to try to figure out, how to explain and decided to just throw it out as god did it.

  213. Tom

    I want to go back to the whole Starbuck resurrection and God did it all thing. I think that what angers so many people (myself included) is not the fact that there was a higher power pulling the strings, but that we know nothing about this Higher Power. RM says that he provided no answers because in real life we also don?t know what God is and what his plan is.

    True, but a TV series is not real life. One of the advantages of BSG is that it was a fictional universe created by human writers, and therefore they could have provided answers. In real life, not only we don?t know the real nature of God and his plan, but we can?t be sure if God exists, and if he does, if he really does have a plan. In BSG world (especially in season 4 and the final episode) there is absolutely no doubt that God exists and he has a plan of sorts, but we are told absolutely nothing about it. The BSG writers never hesitated to tackle hot issues, go against political correctness and to make some people angry. Did they suddenly feel afraid of offending religious people? Did they suddenly became born again Christians? No. The answer is that the lack of answers was caused by lazy writing.

    I want to elaborate on what I mean by ?lazy writing?. I don?t mean to say that the writers themselves are lazy people or that they spend only an hour per day writing and the rest partying, or something like that. I?m sure that they are hard working people (even overworked). What I mean by lazy writing is that they put in stuff and did not think about explaining it.

    I read blogs, comments and interviews with RM. I remember what he had to say about Starbuck?s resurrection. He says that he decided not to explain the mystery of her resurrection because he wanted her to be whatever we the fans want her to be. If some of us want to think of her as being a Daniel?s daughter who was resurrected on Cyclon Earth by an abandoned space station, that?s fine. If we want to think about her being brought back by God, that is fine too. If we want her to be one of the Beings of Light from the original series who assumed her identity, that is fine too.

    Ok. So this is what RM wanted. But if you read his interviews and comments, you will read that this was not the original idea. In fact, there was no original idea. The writers decided to resurrect Starbuck, but when they put that in the script and then they filmed it, they had no idea who or what she was and how did she came back. They thought that her returning with a new Viper to the tune of All Along the Watchtower was cool, so they put it in. There is nothing wrong with first coming up with scenes and ideas and then later coming up with explanations behind them, but at some point you have to sit down and think it over. The writers (RM says so directly) started to think about how to explain resurrected Starbuck long after her return was filmed and aired. And when they did start to think about, they could not come up with a satisfactory answer, so eventually they decided not to explain it at all.

    Had RM planned from the very beginning not to explain Starbuck?s resurrection, I could have respected his choice. I would not agree with it, but on some level I would respect his decision. But this is not the case. RM did not plan making Starbuck into an enigma without an answer from day one. He put her there because it appeared to him as the cool thing to do. Then he didn?t bother to think about an explanation. Then he did thought about it but could come up with nothing interesting. So he finally decided to come up with nothing and left us with the whole ?Starbuck is what you want her to be.?

    All the while the whole ?Let?s find an explanation for Starbuck. Ooops. We can?t. So let?s leave it without an answer? thing was going on in the writers? room, we the audience have been watching season 4 hoping to get an answer and seeing that some sort of mystery was unfolding. And in the end we got no answer.

    This is what I meant by lazy writing. I used Starbuck as an example, but there are many, many other examples. The writers made everything up as they went along without any planning or forethought whatsoever. Very often they introduced stuff and sat down to explain or develop it long after it was filmed and aired. And when they did sit down to explain it, they realized that they can?t come up with a good answer, so they either presented us with last minute, half-assed explanations (Hera?s super important purpose is to pump out as many babies as possible so that we can be her descendants. The Opera House vision introduced and repeated since season 1 was about moving Hera from one room to another. The fleet gives up on technology and decides to enjoy the life of a stone age because Lee Adama said so.) or no explanation at all. (Starbuck is what you want her to be. God exists and he was behind it all but we won?t tell you what he or at the very least what he wants. All Along the Watchtower is a magical song that travels through the ages and many people compose it for a reason we won?t explain. Etc.)

  214. Jo

    Jeff and Tom say it best. The final episode sucked! It revealed a lack of thoughtfulness and contemplation in the creative process, and it is now revealed that the creators of the series were just flying by the seat of their pants, never really intending to reveal the truth behind the mysteries they seeded, or the “plan” of the cylons. Why should I ever watch another Ron Moore or David Eick series ever again?

    Biggest problems:
    1. Extremely unlikely outcome that the colonials would give up all their technologies and go native. You try forcing urban. modern, non-spacefaring Americans to live off the land for more than a week — you’d get a total revolt.
    2. Literal deus ex machina conclusion.
    3. Starbuck storyline.

    Yawn. I regret I invested so much time in watching the series.

  215. Tom

    The decision to abandon technology is one of the most retarded ideas I have ever seen on a TV show. Lee argues that technology is the problem. He reasons that technology allowed Cyclons to be created, therefore, technology is inherently evil. Like all things, technology has its negative and positive qualities, and the positive qualities outnumber the negative ones.

    It is true that during the past 150 000 years human race was in no danger of building sentient robots bent on nuclear genocide, but that is a moot point. The last 150 000 years were a period of barbarism, savagery, ignorance and pointless bloodshed. (And in many ways, the world is still like that, but that is not caused by technology.)

    In the past 150 000 years people did not fear genocidal robots because they were too busy fearing other humans. Even if someone was not in danger of being raped/enslaved/murdered/robbed/brutally exploited by his fellow human beings, his life was still harsh. A typical individual spent a lot of time trying to feed himself (death from starvation was common), trying to survive in harsh, unforgiving environment and undetaking backbreaking work every day (work that put enormous strain on already malnurished body and caused premature aging and death). And if you got sick or injured, God help you. (Actually, he won’t. According to RM abandoning technology was part of his plan.) The medicine was primitive in the extreme and the “doctors” often inflicted more harm than the affliction they were trying to remedy.

    I do admit that introduction of advanced technology and evolution from agrarian to modern techno society created new serious problems that not that long ago would have been impossible and inconceivable. However, when you look at things globally and taking everything into account, our lives are much better than they were centuries ago.

    The Colonials (especially ordinary civilians) had to endure poor living conditions, deprivations, stress and conflict. However, a typical Colonial civilian still had it better than a stone age hunter/gatherer or medieval farmer. And now, that they found a resource rich habitable planet and the Cylons were no longer a problem, their lives were going to improve immeasurabely. Granted, some technological regression would have occurred anyway due to the fact that some knowledge was lost (all those who knew how it works died) or because they lacked industrial base to maintain it (spare parts would run out and there was no way to manufacture more). Still, even regressing to 19th or early 20th century level of technology would have been vastly preferable to throwing your technology into the sun and going back to stone age.

    As if it was not enough, the very last scene shows a robot convention with All Along the Watchtower playing in the background. The intention is (I believe) to show us that we are on the verge of creating our own Cylons. Which means that the suffering through so many billions of people went through in the past 150 000 years was for nothing. RM is saying that we allowed technology to run rampant and soon we will pay the price in the form of sentient, genocidal robots armed with nukes.

    The problem is not with technology but with ignorance created through the decision to abandon technology. The knowledge about Cylons, the 12 Colonies and the whole holocaust did not survived. It is not even a myth. We have no written records from 150 000 years ago. We have no oral stories. All we have is some bones that archeologists dug up. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

    In the end, Lee’s decision accomplished nothing except cause a lot of suffering and delay the creation of new Cylons by 150 000 years.

    But I do not blame Lee because he is a fictional character that does not exist in the real world and never did. We shouldn’t be angry at him. It is like being angry at Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

    I am angry at the writers. Something tells me that this is lazy writing again. They could not come up with a good conclusion, so they made up this “technology is a problem, so let’s all go back to our stone age roots because everyone knows that no one has a better life than a caveman” stupid ending. Well, at least we got some sort of conclusion. With Starbuck they could come up with no good explanation (because they started to think about explaining her resurrection months after it was filmed, instead of giving it some thought BEFORE they decided to film her return) so they eventually decided to give no explanation at all and came up with the whole “she is what you want her to be even though during the whole of seaons 4 we’ve been promising some sort of definite answer” ending.

    Abandoning technology is retarded and goes against everything we’ve seen in the past 4 seasons, but at least it is a conclusion of sorts. It is better to have a badly thought out, retarded conclusion than no conclusion at all.

  216. cybele

    I too was furious when the last episode ended.. because it ended. And yes it’s not a full happy end but I truly believe that it’s the end the series required. Everyone speaks about the abandoning of the technologies.. that they wouldn’t do it in their place but that’s exactly the point. Those people are finally changed because of the journey and because of all those things they were forced to witness. Or do you believe that all their adventures were just a pointless run from the cylons? They needed to change because as it is repeatedly mentioned it was humans those who first created cylons and traced back to the beginning it is only their fault. Without all this they would have made the “normal and natural” choice and keep as much as they could of their own science.
    About Kara, yeah, I was disappointed that after I waited all the seasons to see her with Lee having a happy life she vanishes. But this is crucial for all to understand that she was something else, not cylon, not human, something much bigger and much more important which would only be limited by exact words. Come on, you all have an idea…
    And in the end she almost tell Lee what she is. She tells him how good she finally feels (and she looks in peace with herself which is hardly seen during the previous episodes) that she had accomplish her destiny/ work, whatever, althought she is sad, probably because she won’t be with him. She says she is leaving and will never return and he understands.
    Everything is authentic especially because most of the viewers don’t get it. How everybody finally reacts, their choices – those people would be exactly like us, actually they were before of the journey. you want them to be the same after?
    And about the so cold god and so cold atheists. I am one ( atheist :) ) and I had no problem whatsoever with the end. And by the way.. you did actually see the series didn’t you? because it is clear that there is mysticism and religion from the first to the last episode of BSG. Or you taught that there will be a logical explanation in the end? please.. In spite of all we say the idea of a god or a supreme force that defies time and place and death, however childish might be it’s nice and you liked it if you went all the way from the first episode to the last.

  217. boyd

    Here I am 2 months later and the show is even_more_dead to me.
    When I see it on TV, or so all my DVDs of it, I feel ill. I would give it away but why would I inflict the same disappointment on a friend?
    RDM you failed. You really really failed. Failed yourself, your fans, your once great creation, the original series and creator, and the genre- which you owe a lot to.
    At the end of the day I see you as a poor mans plagiarist who ended up ruining it.
    Do the right thing and get every one together to refilm it
    Make the apology, accept it sucks, and refilm it. Think of the ratings bonanza, the spin offs and the money if thats all that drives you.
    If you think once loyal fans are going to sit through another series of whatever you come up with next and sit at your feet and bask in your mystic wisdom you are even more illogical inconsistent stupid and embarrassing than that final episode.
    You are a disgrace. You misled us. To think- after all of that- and notwithstanding all of your obi-wan interviews, you were just making it up as you went along.
    Everyone I speak to says the show is dead to them and they can’t watch a single episode of it because all of it meant nothing.
    The last 10 episodes was just foreplay for you to peddle your Caprica.
    Why anyone would want to watch that knowing where it was probably going to end (ie God made it happen, but god might be a mental apparition of Baltar- or whatever you want to make up if its all too hard- and look, here’s Peter Griffin visiting in someones dream for a little mental mind-frak)
    I hope Caprica fails and no one watches it. I feel violated that no scrubbing can clean.

  218. Arlo

    I just finally got through Battlestar Galactica. I also just started watching. I went through all of the seasons in what seems like a week and I’m just so glad that it wasn’t 7 seasons long after the letdown of the finale.

    Firstly, if you don’t want to read the whole thing here, is my biggest gotcha. I was able to set it aside while I watched the series to focus on the story, but in light of the ending, I’m letting it bug me again, haha. How could they SERIOUSLY have not been able to detect cylon from human? They have sensing devices like ultrasound, mri, etc. If there was something inside them to transmit their concicousness through space, why couldn’t they see it? If it was biological in origin, there’s no way it would have looked like a regular human brain. Of course this would have completely changed the mystery of the story, probably for the worst?

    Many others have made excellent comments here (Jeff for example).

    I’d also agree that it was the 2nd half of season 4, after they found dead Earth-1, where it started really losing it. I was expecting every episode to start pulling it all together towards the big finale. That never happened. At all.

    It was as if, like so many movies it seems, they decided that they wanted to try to do a WOW ending and then had to write the rest of it all around it. Deciding that it was 150,000 years ago instead of far in our future for example, doomed a great deal many things. Suddenly you have to explain (or in the case of many things NOT explain) how there were no artifacts of high technology around, how an alien species could mate with these natives, how the elements of their culture (mythologies, etc) made it through 150,000 years with nothing but oral tradition, why there were so many similar things like domesticated cats on the ships. If they had not taken it into the past, many of these things could be answered rationally.

    Hell, don’t even try to connect to it our universe at all!!! In that case all of these “similar things” are just story constructs that we can understand. Maybe those aren’t really humans, cats, Greek gods, etc, but representations of a completely alien species in terms that we can understand (and for a vastly lower makeup/costume/set budget… :)

    Sigh. I feel like I was let down by an old friend.

  219. Raptor95032

    I love how this ending has really tweaked all the “intellectuals” out there. I think Ron had “The Plan” when coming up with this ending and it is fun to read how all these uptight people are having their insides twisted up in knots. One of the reasons this finale IS awesome is because it doesn’t answer every question. I don’t want to know exactly what Kara is – but its cool to conjecture; Ron was right, it does make thinks more interesting. Looking forward to “The Plan” and season 1 of Caprica…

    (So Say We All)

    God Bless and Flame Away…

  220. I have just finished watching the whole BSG series over the past couple of months on DVD here in Australia and was really enjoying it – until the mind-numbingly poorly written finale. “Jeff” made arguably the most sensible comments on the cop out that the finale was and I agree whole-heartedly. Ronald D. Moore (RDM) had no idea how to wrap things up; that much is obvious. To make things interesting he blows up Starbuck then brings her back with no explanation but the fans are hanging in there to find out how she could have got to Earth and how she could have been resurrected. Too gutless to go with the Kara Thrace is now a Cylon experiment explanation we are left with metaphysical claptrap when she disappears in the middle of talking to Apollo in the finale. Not only rude to Apollo but downright bad manners to the viewers. RDM should have asked for the fans to write the finale for him because it would have been a better job. I agree that there were some lovely moments – like when Gaius says he knows something about being a farmer and breaks down, just wonderful acting – but none of it makes any sense. RDM did not have any of the “prophecies” fulfilled and there is no evidence anywhere of a “plan” of any kind. The use of deus ex machina to “explain” everything is just as bad as the “I woke up and realised it was all a dream” ploy in writing. It’s kids’ stuff, unworthy of the fine writing that has gone before in episodes of BSG. What a disappointment the finale is. NOTHING was thought clearly through for this ending to a fine TV series. And as for the “head” Baltar and Six – just more quasi-religious metaphysical claptrap being forced down our throats, not to mention the battering with the blunt weapon of stock robot footage we are warned with at the end. Really.
    It reminds me of when I first saw Star Wars Episode One – I really wanted to like it, to love it, but I just could not. You can be a fan of a show without being stupid enough to proclaim your love for EVERY episode, and for me, the finale of BSG is something I’d rather forget.

  221. dave

    Terrible and terribly lame finale.

    Betrayal of the often compelling and incisive scripts of the previous seasons. Now everything has to be sentimental pap fit for a 12-year old? Embarrassing. All the plot lines revealed to be crap.

    If the pilot was anything like the final, I’d have never watched the damn thing.

    Incredibly disappointing for an ongoing work that showed so much promise and innovation.

  222. Richard

    just watched the caprica pilot. i have some unresolved questions:

    1. is it possible that kara is really zoe graystone?
    2. is daniel graystone the same daniel that caviel claim to have destroyed?
    3. if destroyed, how can daniel appear to kara as the piano player in the battlestar bar ?
    4. is lucy (from caprica) the hybrid (from bsg)?

    richard

  223. duckdog

    Richard – I’ve enjoy what little of Caprica we’ve been given this series. Regarding your questions – I think Ron Moore pretty clearly dispelled any rumors that the Daniel cylon has anything to do with Daniel Graystone or Starbuck’s father. I have wondered however whether Lacy could become a possible a to Starbuck. Perhaps when the STO and Cylon uprising becomes a full-fledged war on humanity she will regret her involvement and change her name prior to joining the military. Perhaps she’s Socrata Thrace?

  224. I love your website – great job!

  225. Ross

    Ok I have a question and and I would really appreciate a response because this is doing my head in… and I think yours.
    At the end when “angel” 6 and “angel” Balter are walking on New Earth 150,000 years later discusing the simularities of Earth and the 12 colonies “angel” Baltar reverts to “human” Baltar’s Aerelon accent (his home colony, you know that husky voice) which he imeadiately apologizes for.
    My question: Why would an angel who adopted Baltar’s physical appearence also adopt Baltar’s old Aerelon accent which he (the angel) never uses in the entire series and seemingly accidently revert to it while talking to “angel” 6 150,000 years later…By that time surely the Aerelon accent has been long forgotten… Is this a clue???
    I really need help figuring this out its the last aspect of the show I have no clue about… I have a theory but at this point its preety outlandinsh

  226. Wow, amazing website. Quite a lot to read here. Some excellent comments. It is going to take me a week to get to the bottom of the conversation. I guess I will have to bookmark it and come back. Great website design by the way.

  227. Beardedclamdigger

    Holy crap.. easy answer.. did you see how many chicks Baltar Nailed!?!?.. He is god..

  228. Marco

    BG was a marvelous creation…a superb job in an imperfect world. A very endearing, memorable, and rich cast of characters and a fantasy fullfilling escape…very satisfying!

    I’m curious to know if anyone in the cast ever mentioned the amount of booze everyone was downing…especially Adama and Starbuck…I can’t image anyone surviving that amount of liquor.

  229. There has to be another ways to connect to the site with no opt-in to the RSS? I don’t know the reason why however I can’t receive the RSS filled upon my reader however I can see that via the firefox.

  230. Hey, what is the timestamp on this post? I was looking all over the page… I love discover magazine and usually it’s there but I can’t find it. Any help on telling me when this was posted? :

  231. Longshot

    Really getting a good laugh over everyone getting upset about the whole “god and angels” thing, and the “what was the plan” thing. So many of you want spoon fed answers.

    The “angel” or “head” Baltar and Six have a little chat at the end in Times Square. Talking about the fate of sentient life, and is it all happening again.

    Six mentions “God”, and Baltar reminds her that “He doesn’t like to be called that”. (It was almost a “throw away” line, so maybe you missed it?)

    Anyone remember the interview flashback with Samuel Anders? Sitting in the tub, talking about why he really plays the game?

    Think about some of the things Leoben says about the hybrids. About how and “where” they exist.

    Why were stars and nebulae so crucial in giving the “clues” to finding Earth?

    All the clues are there.

  232. kanukauf im internet die besten kanus im test und kaufen

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