<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Carbon Dioxide Sucks: It Cooks Our Planet &amp; Makes First Contact Harder</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2010/09/23/carbon-dioxide-sucks-it-cooks-our-planet-makes-first-contact-harder/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2010/09/23/carbon-dioxide-sucks-it-cooks-our-planet-makes-first-contact-harder/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 16:57:08 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2010/09/23/carbon-dioxide-sucks-it-cooks-our-planet-makes-first-contact-harder/#comment-3438</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jun 2011 02:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=2500#comment-3438</guid>
		<description>You know what I hate about all these kinds of articles? People just dont really do the math. I mean, seriously, what are the chances of intelligent life happening in a universe as vast as ours more than once? I would say probably 100% even though we may never find intelligent life on another planet, I just wish people would get it through there head that its surely out there. Even if life is not common, if life were the exception rather than the rule, there would still be at least 1 other planet out there with intelligent life, and considering the size of galaxies, I am pretty sure that there are thousands of habitable worlds in our galaxy alone, if not millions. Just because we cant see them or talk to them does not mean that there not there!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know what I hate about all these kinds of articles? People just dont really do the math. I mean, seriously, what are the chances of intelligent life happening in a universe as vast as ours more than once? I would say probably 100% even though we may never find intelligent life on another planet, I just wish people would get it through there head that its surely out there. Even if life is not common, if life were the exception rather than the rule, there would still be at least 1 other planet out there with intelligent life, and considering the size of galaxies, I am pretty sure that there are thousands of habitable worlds in our galaxy alone, if not millions. Just because we cant see them or talk to them does not mean that there not there!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JO HILLIARD</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2010/09/23/carbon-dioxide-sucks-it-cooks-our-planet-makes-first-contact-harder/#comment-3437</link>
		<dc:creator>JO HILLIARD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Sep 2010 07:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=2500#comment-3437</guid>
		<description>Very interesting article, but it fails in so many ways.  Our Comos is vast,and I mean V A S T !

In 2010, we haven&#039;t the vaguest idea what will be discover in the near future and beyond.  Theories bounce around like balls and we are just in kindergaren on this subject.

I think it  would be marvelous to live for thousdand of years and see the discoveries that appear, then of course, being the curious person I am, I&#039;d want more time.

JO</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting article, but it fails in so many ways.  Our Comos is vast,and I mean V A S T !</p>
<p>In 2010, we haven&#8217;t the vaguest idea what will be discover in the near future and beyond.  Theories bounce around like balls and we are just in kindergaren on this subject.</p>
<p>I think it  would be marvelous to live for thousdand of years and see the discoveries that appear, then of course, being the curious person I am, I&#8217;d want more time.</p>
<p>JO</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2010/09/23/carbon-dioxide-sucks-it-cooks-our-planet-makes-first-contact-harder/#comment-3436</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Sep 2010 06:28:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=2500#comment-3436</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
A habitable exo-Earth? Not so fast.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Indeed: the article is confusing both atmospheres and the metrics.

First, on the atmospheres and their mixing, the comments have mentioned what is observed, well mixed atmospheres. It should also be noted that if this didn&#039;t happen, there would be little greenhouse effect as it happens (mostly) throughout the entire mixed troposphere.

Second, on the metrics, the habitability prediction is using observed gravity &lt;i&gt;and surface temperature&lt;/i&gt;, so is safe from atmospheric compositions which are already folded in.

But even so, if you start to include atmospheric composition you will differentiate between inhabited habitable planets (nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere in Earth analogs, nitrogen/methane in putatively inhabited Titan analogs, no atmosphere in putatively inhabited Europa analogs) and uninhabited habitable planets. That is something else entirely.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Earth, too, likely had an atmosphere composed chiefly of CO2 in its youth, and if it still had that atmosphere, it would be too hot for life. Earth was “lucky”, though: in its infancy Earth was struck by a Mars-sized object and stripped of its Venus-like atmosphere. What are the odds that events like this are common throughout the galaxy?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The odds with your model is 1/3, extrapolating from observations of our system.

All four terrestrials were hit with massive last impactors scaled to their final size. (Moon sized for Mars, potentially the one creating both the North cap low region and the Moon analog Phobos &amp; perhaps Deimos impact ejecta assemblages. There&#039;s an interesting update on the later prediction circulating right now.) Mercury atmosphere was lost anyway, too close to the Sun, so we don&#039;t know either way.

Venus last impactor was likely larger than ours since it retrograded Venus. The difference is that the retrograde motion would destabilize any Venus moon impact ejecta assemblages by tidal effects, to crash back on Venus. (See for example Wikipedia on Venus for references.)

But that isn&#039;t what is thought happened. The main model today seem to be that early Earth retained a massive CO2/H2O atmosphere after the Theia impact. In collision models Theia atmosphere can contribute to Earth&#039;s volatile supply, at that, explaining why Earth/Moon refractories are well mixed but Earth got plenty volatiles. And certainly our carbon supply supports that hypothesis. (See astrobiology textbooks.)

The difference between Earth and Venus then comes down to plate tectonics that locked away our carbon. Earth retained enough water after the putative early water hydrolysis/hydrodynamic hydrogen loss stage to form seas making the crust malleable to plate tectonics by modifying viscosity such as by helping granitification along. Venus did not, probably because it was closer to the early sun massive CMEs and lost too much hydrogen.

What this means is that the habitable zone for migrating planets is initially smaller (outwards Venus) than later (inwards Venus).

To conclude, Earth locked away substantial carbon quickly since the early crust formation was quick. (Some papers now say less than ~ 30 My, because of the new find of material  from an early differentiated crust reservoir.) And since its initial turn around was an order of magnitude faster. (~ 5 times larger internal heat flow, and no large plates somewhat lidding.)

We know from both fossil water isotope analysis and and an ingenious new chert isotope analysis method that Earth seas was less than 40 degC @ ~ 3 Ga. Certainly the stromatolite cyanobacteria assemblages @ ~ 3.5 Ga was living in less than 73 degC, the upper limit for aerobic photosynthesis such as they use. Finally, isotope analysis of diamonds locked in the oldest found zirconium crystals put the seas as below 100 degC @ ~ 4.2 Ga, because they saw a substantial liquid water supply. At that time the solar radiant flux was ~ 70 % today&#039;s level, mind.

In sum these upper temperature limits tests the carbon dioxide lock in prediction well, seeing the initial available carbon supply and the resulting one predicts the process in the first place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
A habitable exo-Earth? Not so fast.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Indeed: the article is confusing both atmospheres and the metrics.</p>
<p>First, on the atmospheres and their mixing, the comments have mentioned what is observed, well mixed atmospheres. It should also be noted that if this didn&#8217;t happen, there would be little greenhouse effect as it happens (mostly) throughout the entire mixed troposphere.</p>
<p>Second, on the metrics, the habitability prediction is using observed gravity <i>and surface temperature</i>, so is safe from atmospheric compositions which are already folded in.</p>
<p>But even so, if you start to include atmospheric composition you will differentiate between inhabited habitable planets (nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere in Earth analogs, nitrogen/methane in putatively inhabited Titan analogs, no atmosphere in putatively inhabited Europa analogs) and uninhabited habitable planets. That is something else entirely.</p>
<blockquote><p>
Earth, too, likely had an atmosphere composed chiefly of CO2 in its youth, and if it still had that atmosphere, it would be too hot for life. Earth was “lucky”, though: in its infancy Earth was struck by a Mars-sized object and stripped of its Venus-like atmosphere. What are the odds that events like this are common throughout the galaxy?
</p></blockquote>
<p>The odds with your model is 1/3, extrapolating from observations of our system.</p>
<p>All four terrestrials were hit with massive last impactors scaled to their final size. (Moon sized for Mars, potentially the one creating both the North cap low region and the Moon analog Phobos &amp; perhaps Deimos impact ejecta assemblages. There&#8217;s an interesting update on the later prediction circulating right now.) Mercury atmosphere was lost anyway, too close to the Sun, so we don&#8217;t know either way.</p>
<p>Venus last impactor was likely larger than ours since it retrograded Venus. The difference is that the retrograde motion would destabilize any Venus moon impact ejecta assemblages by tidal effects, to crash back on Venus. (See for example Wikipedia on Venus for references.)</p>
<p>But that isn&#8217;t what is thought happened. The main model today seem to be that early Earth retained a massive CO2/H2O atmosphere after the Theia impact. In collision models Theia atmosphere can contribute to Earth&#8217;s volatile supply, at that, explaining why Earth/Moon refractories are well mixed but Earth got plenty volatiles. And certainly our carbon supply supports that hypothesis. (See astrobiology textbooks.)</p>
<p>The difference between Earth and Venus then comes down to plate tectonics that locked away our carbon. Earth retained enough water after the putative early water hydrolysis/hydrodynamic hydrogen loss stage to form seas making the crust malleable to plate tectonics by modifying viscosity such as by helping granitification along. Venus did not, probably because it was closer to the early sun massive CMEs and lost too much hydrogen.</p>
<p>What this means is that the habitable zone for migrating planets is initially smaller (outwards Venus) than later (inwards Venus).</p>
<p>To conclude, Earth locked away substantial carbon quickly since the early crust formation was quick. (Some papers now say less than ~ 30 My, because of the new find of material  from an early differentiated crust reservoir.) And since its initial turn around was an order of magnitude faster. (~ 5 times larger internal heat flow, and no large plates somewhat lidding.)</p>
<p>We know from both fossil water isotope analysis and and an ingenious new chert isotope analysis method that Earth seas was less than 40 degC @ ~ 3 Ga. Certainly the stromatolite cyanobacteria assemblages @ ~ 3.5 Ga was living in less than 73 degC, the upper limit for aerobic photosynthesis such as they use. Finally, isotope analysis of diamonds locked in the oldest found zirconium crystals put the seas as below 100 degC @ ~ 4.2 Ga, because they saw a substantial liquid water supply. At that time the solar radiant flux was ~ 70 % today&#8217;s level, mind.</p>
<p>In sum these upper temperature limits tests the carbon dioxide lock in prediction well, seeing the initial available carbon supply and the resulting one predicts the process in the first place.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2010/09/23/carbon-dioxide-sucks-it-cooks-our-planet-makes-first-contact-harder/#comment-3435</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Sep 2010 03:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=2500#comment-3435</guid>
		<description>The idea that earth has lost its carbon dioxide is spurious. It&#039;s locked up in the massive beds of calcium carbonate (limestone &amp; marble) or converted to free oxygen and coal beds all over the world.  On Venus it has been baked out just as we bake it out when we make cement from limestone. There are no oceans full of life on Venus to bind it again as limestone, coal, and oil.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea that earth has lost its carbon dioxide is spurious. It&#8217;s locked up in the massive beds of calcium carbonate (limestone &amp; marble) or converted to free oxygen and coal beds all over the world.  On Venus it has been baked out just as we bake it out when we make cement from limestone. There are no oceans full of life on Venus to bind it again as limestone, coal, and oil.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ChH</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2010/09/23/carbon-dioxide-sucks-it-cooks-our-planet-makes-first-contact-harder/#comment-3434</link>
		<dc:creator>ChH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Sep 2010 22:59:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=2500#comment-3434</guid>
		<description>Sweet Chuck - look up &quot;Anthropic principle&quot;

David - they&#039;re saying that the Earth would have been too hot for life to begin in the first place had the collision not reset its atmosphere early on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sweet Chuck &#8211; look up &#8220;Anthropic principle&#8221;</p>
<p>David &#8211; they&#8217;re saying that the Earth would have been too hot for life to begin in the first place had the collision not reset its atmosphere early on.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2010/09/23/carbon-dioxide-sucks-it-cooks-our-planet-makes-first-contact-harder/#comment-3433</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Sep 2010 21:18:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=2500#comment-3433</guid>
		<description>Has not the emerging life removed nearly all CO2 from the athmosphere and turned it into O2?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has not the emerging life removed nearly all CO2 from the athmosphere and turned it into O2?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sweet Chuck</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2010/09/23/carbon-dioxide-sucks-it-cooks-our-planet-makes-first-contact-harder/#comment-3432</link>
		<dc:creator>Sweet Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=2500#comment-3432</guid>
		<description>&quot;Earth was “lucky”, though: in its infancy Earth was struck by a Mars-sized object and stripped of its Venus-like atmosphere. What are the odds that events like this are common throughout the galaxy?&quot;

Why is it thought that this sort of event is required?  Post hoc, ergo propter hoc...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Earth was “lucky”, though: in its infancy Earth was struck by a Mars-sized object and stripped of its Venus-like atmosphere. What are the odds that events like this are common throughout the galaxy?&#8221;</p>
<p>Why is it thought that this sort of event is required?  Post hoc, ergo propter hoc&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2010/09/23/carbon-dioxide-sucks-it-cooks-our-planet-makes-first-contact-harder/#comment-3431</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Sep 2010 08:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=2500#comment-3431</guid>
		<description>1. Gases in atmospheres of planets similar to Earth are well mixed. The mass difference is too small to offset the mixing from convection. ChH&#039;s idea that gases might stay unmixed requires a planet without convection, which can only happen without a greenhouse effect, thus without CO2 in the mix.

2. Venus may be hot at the surface, but it cools off as you increase in altitude, and gases can&#039;t escape directly from the surface into space:
http://www.datasync.com/~rsf1/vel/1918vpt.htm

3. &quot;Most gases&quot; can&#039;t reach escape velocity. Hydrogen can, but the rest are too heavy.

What can happen is that H2O at high altitudes is dissociated into hydrogen and oxygen so the hydrogen is lost. On Earth the tropopause is cool enough that almost all water freezes out before it can get that high leading to a very dry stratosphere. The UV needed to dissociate water molecules doesn&#039;t reach deep enough into our atmosphere to find much water to attack. If not for this, Earth might have lost most of its water by now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. Gases in atmospheres of planets similar to Earth are well mixed. The mass difference is too small to offset the mixing from convection. ChH&#8217;s idea that gases might stay unmixed requires a planet without convection, which can only happen without a greenhouse effect, thus without CO2 in the mix.</p>
<p>2. Venus may be hot at the surface, but it cools off as you increase in altitude, and gases can&#8217;t escape directly from the surface into space:<br />
<a href="http://www.datasync.com/~rsf1/vel/1918vpt.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.datasync.com/~rsf1/vel/1918vpt.htm</a></p>
<p>3. &#8220;Most gases&#8221; can&#8217;t reach escape velocity. Hydrogen can, but the rest are too heavy.</p>
<p>What can happen is that H2O at high altitudes is dissociated into hydrogen and oxygen so the hydrogen is lost. On Earth the tropopause is cool enough that almost all water freezes out before it can get that high leading to a very dry stratosphere. The UV needed to dissociate water molecules doesn&#8217;t reach deep enough into our atmosphere to find much water to attack. If not for this, Earth might have lost most of its water by now.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ChH</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2010/09/23/carbon-dioxide-sucks-it-cooks-our-planet-makes-first-contact-harder/#comment-3430</link>
		<dc:creator>ChH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Sep 2010 01:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=2500#comment-3430</guid>
		<description>Does CO2 sink to the bottom of an atmosphere?
I don&#039;t think so. Once gasses - even of widely differing molecular weights- are mixed, they stay mixed.
Now - if you&#039;re talking about which gasses achieve escape velocity from the rarified upper atmospheres, that&#039;s fine.  But gasses in the lower, more dense part of the atmosphere will not stratify.
The other exception would be a planet that gets cold enough to liquify gasses - they&#039;ll drop out of their gasseous states at different temperatures.  Having become unmixed, they could remain stratified and relatively unmixed after that region warms up enough to re-vaporize the liquids.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does CO2 sink to the bottom of an atmosphere?<br />
I don&#8217;t think so. Once gasses &#8211; even of widely differing molecular weights- are mixed, they stay mixed.<br />
Now &#8211; if you&#8217;re talking about which gasses achieve escape velocity from the rarified upper atmospheres, that&#8217;s fine.  But gasses in the lower, more dense part of the atmosphere will not stratify.<br />
The other exception would be a planet that gets cold enough to liquify gasses &#8211; they&#8217;ll drop out of their gasseous states at different temperatures.  Having become unmixed, they could remain stratified and relatively unmixed after that region warms up enough to re-vaporize the liquids.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: eukaryote</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2010/09/23/carbon-dioxide-sucks-it-cooks-our-planet-makes-first-contact-harder/#comment-3429</link>
		<dc:creator>eukaryote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Sep 2010 00:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=2500#comment-3429</guid>
		<description>I was under the impression that the Earth has approximately the same amount of carbon as Venus, the main difference being that on Earth, plate tectonics keeps most of the carbon locked up in the mantle and crust.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was under the impression that the Earth has approximately the same amount of carbon as Venus, the main difference being that on Earth, plate tectonics keeps most of the carbon locked up in the mantle and crust.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
