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	<title>Comments on: Robots That Evolve Like Animals Are Tough and Smart—Like Animals</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/02/14/robots-that-evolve-like-animals-are-tough-and-smart%e2%80%94like-animals/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/02/14/robots-that-evolve-like-animals-are-tough-and-smart%e2%80%94like-animals/</link>
	<description>The science of futurist technologies—and an excuse to soak in sci-fi TV shows, books, movies, toys, and video games.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 16:57:08 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: p.udhaya shankar</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/02/14/robots-that-evolve-like-animals-are-tough-and-smart%e2%80%94like-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-29869</link>
		<dc:creator>p.udhaya shankar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 May 2011 07:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=3816#comment-29869</guid>
		<description>i want to know that how to make an robo like an dog with the steps please send it to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i want to know that how to make an robo like an dog with the steps please send it to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm MacIver</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/02/14/robots-that-evolve-like-animals-are-tough-and-smart%e2%80%94like-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-28214</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm MacIver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Mar 2011 14:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=3816#comment-28214</guid>
		<description>I suspect it was chosen as an approximation to what we see through evolutionary history in terms of body form progression. I would expect the choice of these shapes would affect the results. For example, if the sequence had been from dog-like to snake like, probably one of the key results would not have been found (that going through shape changes increases the rate of learning). Your suggestion regarding an alternative sequence of shapes (disabled final form) is definitely one that would be encouraged by the paper -- design the morphology sequence to maximize final robustness. I don&#039;t think the point is specific to the (evolution-like) sequence.

Fitness was assessed by the robot&#039;s ability to approach the light. I can&#039;t see a specification of whether this was something like continually decreasing distance to the light for a certain amount of time, or arrival at the light, or velocity to the light.

UPDATE: Bongard stated in an email that the fitness function was the average of several light sensors. If the average exceeded a pre-set threshold, the controller is considered successful. The higher the threshold, the closer the robot has to get to the light to count as successful. The threshold was fixed at a level at which most of the time the robots got about half way to the light.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect it was chosen as an approximation to what we see through evolutionary history in terms of body form progression. I would expect the choice of these shapes would affect the results. For example, if the sequence had been from dog-like to snake like, probably one of the key results would not have been found (that going through shape changes increases the rate of learning). Your suggestion regarding an alternative sequence of shapes (disabled final form) is definitely one that would be encouraged by the paper &#8212; design the morphology sequence to maximize final robustness. I don&#8217;t think the point is specific to the (evolution-like) sequence.</p>
<p>Fitness was assessed by the robot&#8217;s ability to approach the light. I can&#8217;t see a specification of whether this was something like continually decreasing distance to the light for a certain amount of time, or arrival at the light, or velocity to the light.</p>
<p>UPDATE: Bongard stated in an email that the fitness function was the average of several light sensors. If the average exceeded a pre-set threshold, the controller is considered successful. The higher the threshold, the closer the robot has to get to the light to count as successful. The threshold was fixed at a level at which most of the time the robots got about half way to the light.</p>
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		<title>By: Adriaan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/02/14/robots-that-evolve-like-animals-are-tough-and-smart%e2%80%94like-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-27985</link>
		<dc:creator>Adriaan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Mar 2011 07:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=3816#comment-27985</guid>
		<description>Fascinating article, thanks!

Just curious as to how the body shape progressions were chosen, as that seems to be the one element here that was &#039;imposed&#039; rather than evolved. Of course, that doesn&#039;t diminish from the current finding, but perhaps how the shapes progress affects the results? In line with the thought that the more complicated shapes have the simper controllers embedded in them, maybe a shape progression where the basic forms are more similar to a disabled final form would be even more stable?

On a separate tangent, I&#039;m just curious - do you know how the relative success of each controller was judged? Was it merely the absolute distance, or were there factors for, say, average movement speed in any direction, or similar?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating article, thanks!</p>
<p>Just curious as to how the body shape progressions were chosen, as that seems to be the one element here that was &#8216;imposed&#8217; rather than evolved. Of course, that doesn&#8217;t diminish from the current finding, but perhaps how the shapes progress affects the results? In line with the thought that the more complicated shapes have the simper controllers embedded in them, maybe a shape progression where the basic forms are more similar to a disabled final form would be even more stable?</p>
<p>On a separate tangent, I&#8217;m just curious &#8211; do you know how the relative success of each controller was judged? Was it merely the absolute distance, or were there factors for, say, average movement speed in any direction, or similar?</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm MacIver</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/02/14/robots-that-evolve-like-animals-are-tough-and-smart%e2%80%94like-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-27531</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm MacIver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Feb 2011 00:40:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=3816#comment-27531</guid>
		<description>@Jillinthebox, good question. A good first pass measure on the complexity of the motion problem for a robot is how many &quot;degrees of freedom&quot; the robot has - how many independently controllable joints. Aibo had 20; Josh&#039;s robots had 10 or 16 (10 for four legs, 16 for six). That&#039;s pretty close. Lack of grace in the physical models can come from a bunch of things, including really severe limits we have on what kind of motors we can build and how responsive they can be while remaining compact. Thus, the lack of grace could also be from the non-controller aspects of the physical robots. If I recall from the movies though, the simulated robots were not all that elegant either - if this is lack of controller sophistication, it may be due to not enough generations of evolution, or limits to the genetic algorithm approach, or limits to how the physics was modeled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jillinthebox, good question. A good first pass measure on the complexity of the motion problem for a robot is how many &#8220;degrees of freedom&#8221; the robot has &#8211; how many independently controllable joints. Aibo had 20; Josh&#8217;s robots had 10 or 16 (10 for four legs, 16 for six). That&#8217;s pretty close. Lack of grace in the physical models can come from a bunch of things, including really severe limits we have on what kind of motors we can build and how responsive they can be while remaining compact. Thus, the lack of grace could also be from the non-controller aspects of the physical robots. If I recall from the movies though, the simulated robots were not all that elegant either &#8211; if this is lack of controller sophistication, it may be due to not enough generations of evolution, or limits to the genetic algorithm approach, or limits to how the physics was modeled.</p>
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		<title>By: Jillinthebox</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/02/14/robots-that-evolve-like-animals-are-tough-and-smart%e2%80%94like-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-27526</link>
		<dc:creator>Jillinthebox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:28:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=3816#comment-27526</guid>
		<description>Can Josh Bongard&#039; s simulated neural network controller be used to control a more complex robot? For example an Aibo? While the erector set robot on the video is an interesting demo of the simulation, it seems to me that one of the advantages of evolution in nature is elegance of movement. Nature is robust and at the same time graceful. Will we see elegance in the v2.0 ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can Josh Bongard&#8217; s simulated neural network controller be used to control a more complex robot? For example an Aibo? While the erector set robot on the video is an interesting demo of the simulation, it seems to me that one of the advantages of evolution in nature is elegance of movement. Nature is robust and at the same time graceful. Will we see elegance in the v2.0 ?</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm MacIver</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/02/14/robots-that-evolve-like-animals-are-tough-and-smart%e2%80%94like-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-27522</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm MacIver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Feb 2011 15:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=3816#comment-27522</guid>
		<description>John Anderson - thanks! It&#039;s fun to explain really exciting new work buried in professional journals to interested people who might not otherwise get a chance to see it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Anderson &#8211; thanks! It&#8217;s fun to explain really exciting new work buried in professional journals to interested people who might not otherwise get a chance to see it.</p>
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		<title>By: John R Anderson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/02/14/robots-that-evolve-like-animals-are-tough-and-smart%e2%80%94like-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-27418</link>
		<dc:creator>John R Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Feb 2011 18:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=3816#comment-27418</guid>
		<description>Wonderful article! I&#039;ve had a long-standing interest in AI, especially neural networks and genetic progamming, and thoroughly enjoyed the article.  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful article! I&#8217;ve had a long-standing interest in AI, especially neural networks and genetic progamming, and thoroughly enjoyed the article.  Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm MacIver</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/02/14/robots-that-evolve-like-animals-are-tough-and-smart%e2%80%94like-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-27374</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm MacIver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2011 16:19:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=3816#comment-27374</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately not at the moment. Nor electric fish, star-nosed moles, or pangolins. The paper only considers cubist snake-like, salmander-like, and dog-like forms. But, just wait for 2.0!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately not at the moment. Nor electric fish, star-nosed moles, or pangolins. The paper only considers cubist snake-like, salmander-like, and dog-like forms. But, just wait for 2.0!</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Watts</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/02/14/robots-that-evolve-like-animals-are-tough-and-smart%e2%80%94like-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-27346</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Watts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2011 04:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=3816#comment-27346</guid>
		<description>Can you make a passenger pigeon or an ivory billed woodpecker or a sea mink or a Stellers sea cow?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you make a passenger pigeon or an ivory billed woodpecker or a sea mink or a Stellers sea cow?</p>
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