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	<title>Comments on: Why Did Consciousness Evolve, and How Can We Modify It?</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/03/14/why-did-consciousness-evolve-and-how-can-we-modify-it/</link>
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		<title>By: Malcolm MacIver</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/03/14/why-did-consciousness-evolve-and-how-can-we-modify-it/#comment-4560</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm MacIver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2011 02:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4077#comment-4560</guid>
		<description>@Andy - thanks for your thoughtful points. As you say, &quot;there is a complete disconnect between ability to plan or any other measure of what in effect is intelligence, and consciousness.&quot; Any intersubjectively acceptable description of consciousness -- in particular, one so precise that it would be the basis of a mechanism for implementing consciousness -- would fall short of the &quot;what it&#039;s like to be X&quot; aspect. If this isn&#039;t obvious, just think of the old saw of Mary, the blind neurophysiologist who lives at some future time when we understand everything there is to understand about what happens between the visual perception of a dog, and the emission of the words &quot;there is a dog.&quot; She can give an intersubjectively agreed upon, precise description of every step of the process, so precise that we can make a machine that duplicates the process. Yet, she&#039;ll never know what is like to see a dog - since she&#039;s blind.

Various responses to this problem include that consciousness therefore forms a logically separate domain (as my old classmate and friend David Chalmers would hold). Another response is that this shows consciousness in this sense cannot be approached scientifically. I&#039;d be happy if Buena Vista Consciousness could contribute to understanding how one aspect of what we mean by consciousness evolved within animals.

@Fred - I&#039;m not sure I understand your point. If it&#039;s one about the logic of consciousness not being empirically accessible, I could see some part of what you mean about its non evolvability. But, at the very least, we can agree that the biological antecedents -- such as, if I&#039;m right, the contemplation of multiple futures -- have an evolutionary history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Andy &#8211; thanks for your thoughtful points. As you say, &#8220;there is a complete disconnect between ability to plan or any other measure of what in effect is intelligence, and consciousness.&#8221; Any intersubjectively acceptable description of consciousness &#8212; in particular, one so precise that it would be the basis of a mechanism for implementing consciousness &#8212; would fall short of the &#8220;what it&#8217;s like to be X&#8221; aspect. If this isn&#8217;t obvious, just think of the old saw of Mary, the blind neurophysiologist who lives at some future time when we understand everything there is to understand about what happens between the visual perception of a dog, and the emission of the words &#8220;there is a dog.&#8221; She can give an intersubjectively agreed upon, precise description of every step of the process, so precise that we can make a machine that duplicates the process. Yet, she&#8217;ll never know what is like to see a dog &#8211; since she&#8217;s blind.</p>
<p>Various responses to this problem include that consciousness therefore forms a logically separate domain (as my old classmate and friend David Chalmers would hold). Another response is that this shows consciousness in this sense cannot be approached scientifically. I&#8217;d be happy if Buena Vista Consciousness could contribute to understanding how one aspect of what we mean by consciousness evolved within animals.</p>
<p>@Fred &#8211; I&#8217;m not sure I understand your point. If it&#8217;s one about the logic of consciousness not being empirically accessible, I could see some part of what you mean about its non evolvability. But, at the very least, we can agree that the biological antecedents &#8212; such as, if I&#8217;m right, the contemplation of multiple futures &#8212; have an evolutionary history.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Claret</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/03/14/why-did-consciousness-evolve-and-how-can-we-modify-it/#comment-4559</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Claret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2011 14:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4077#comment-4559</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t looked into it deeply but to my mind consciousness cannot be said to have evolved. No matter how low the conscious level it is still consciousness. Surely there is consciousness or not, a scale of consciousness always assumes some consciousness. I think it is interesting to compare say a virus which can be understood as, almost, robotic biochemical reactions to a bacteria which seems to behave more consciously.
The laws of physics didn&#039;t evolve and maybe neither did consciousness. (btw I am not making a pro God/religion argument here)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t looked into it deeply but to my mind consciousness cannot be said to have evolved. No matter how low the conscious level it is still consciousness. Surely there is consciousness or not, a scale of consciousness always assumes some consciousness. I think it is interesting to compare say a virus which can be understood as, almost, robotic biochemical reactions to a bacteria which seems to behave more consciously.<br />
The laws of physics didn&#8217;t evolve and maybe neither did consciousness. (btw I am not making a pro God/religion argument here)</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/03/14/why-did-consciousness-evolve-and-how-can-we-modify-it/#comment-4558</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jun 2011 18:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4077#comment-4558</guid>
		<description>Sorry,correction, I guess there is no editing function? In the previous post, I should have said Ramachandran contrasted qualia with reflexive responses in humans, which do not involve qualia. He then extrapolated from these findings to argue that organisms like insects that have (only) similar reflexive or stereotyped responses can not be experiencing qualia, and therefore are not conscious in the hard, what-it-is-like sense.

This is a very important piece of research IMO, because it gets beyond  pure speculation based on observable behavior of whether other organisms are conscious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry,correction, I guess there is no editing function? In the previous post, I should have said Ramachandran contrasted qualia with reflexive responses in humans, which do not involve qualia. He then extrapolated from these findings to argue that organisms like insects that have (only) similar reflexive or stereotyped responses can not be experiencing qualia, and therefore are not conscious in the hard, what-it-is-like sense.</p>
<p>This is a very important piece of research IMO, because it gets beyond  pure speculation based on observable behavior of whether other organisms are conscious.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/03/14/why-did-consciousness-evolve-and-how-can-we-modify-it/#comment-4557</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jun 2011 18:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4077#comment-4557</guid>
		<description>Having had a chance to read through some of the other comments, I now see that Lila made essentially the same point. I also appreciate that Malcolm is not claiming that this is &quot;the&quot; definition of consciousness. But I do think it&#039;s important to understand that it is only addressing what are sometimes called the functional or &quot;soft&quot; features of consciousness, in David Chalmers&#039; terms.  Fair enough, but I believe when most people think of consciousness, they associate it more with the hard version, the what-it-is-like-to-be aspect. All the functional aspects could simply be called intelligence.

The best argument I have seen for associating the planning aspect of behavior with actual awareness comes from studies of neurologist and author V.I. Ramachandran, who reported  that the ability to experience qualia--which are the essence of the hard problem--is closely associated with the existence of multiple behavioral options. He contrasts responses associated with qualia in humans with the more-or-less stereotyped responses linked to invertebrate vision, which is presumed not to involve qualia. There are some possible criticisms of this conclusion I won&#039;t get into here, but this is an important piece of work that does get at this issue in a novel way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having had a chance to read through some of the other comments, I now see that Lila made essentially the same point. I also appreciate that Malcolm is not claiming that this is &#8220;the&#8221; definition of consciousness. But I do think it&#8217;s important to understand that it is only addressing what are sometimes called the functional or &#8220;soft&#8221; features of consciousness, in David Chalmers&#8217; terms.  Fair enough, but I believe when most people think of consciousness, they associate it more with the hard version, the what-it-is-like-to-be aspect. All the functional aspects could simply be called intelligence.</p>
<p>The best argument I have seen for associating the planning aspect of behavior with actual awareness comes from studies of neurologist and author V.I. Ramachandran, who reported  that the ability to experience qualia&#8211;which are the essence of the hard problem&#8211;is closely associated with the existence of multiple behavioral options. He contrasts responses associated with qualia in humans with the more-or-less stereotyped responses linked to invertebrate vision, which is presumed not to involve qualia. There are some possible criticisms of this conclusion I won&#8217;t get into here, but this is an important piece of work that does get at this issue in a novel way.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/03/14/why-did-consciousness-evolve-and-how-can-we-modify-it/#comment-4556</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jun 2011 17:20:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4077#comment-4556</guid>
		<description>The root problem with this idea is the assumption that &quot;Consciousness is the operation of the plan-executing mechanism, enabling behavior to be driven by plans rather than immediate environmental contingencies.&quot; It&#039;s perfectly plausible that an unconscious organism, or a machine, for that matter, could formulate plans for its behavior. In fact, in principle, an unconscious being could behave exactly like a human (the philosopher&#039;s zombie). While there are presumably no zombies in existence, we have very powerful computers that are capable of planning multiple scenarios--in fact, are far more capable than individual humans are. Are they conscious? If they are not, could not in principle have unconscious organisms evolved to live on land with highly advanced planning functions?

Yogi-one gets at this issue in noting that AI researchers assume awareness emerges with growing complexity. But this is a very controversial idea, and many philosophers would argue against it. Searle&#039;s Chinese room argument is perhaps the most well known and discussed argument against it.

If one understands consciousness as the experience of what it is like to be something (Nagel)--the so-called hard problem of consciousness--then there is a complete disconnect between ability to plan or any other measure of what in effect is intelligence, and consciousness. Not only could be very complex and intelligent behavior be carried out by a machine that we humans would all describe as unconscious, but conversely, relatively simple organisms could be conscious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The root problem with this idea is the assumption that &#8220;Consciousness is the operation of the plan-executing mechanism, enabling behavior to be driven by plans rather than immediate environmental contingencies.&#8221; It&#8217;s perfectly plausible that an unconscious organism, or a machine, for that matter, could formulate plans for its behavior. In fact, in principle, an unconscious being could behave exactly like a human (the philosopher&#8217;s zombie). While there are presumably no zombies in existence, we have very powerful computers that are capable of planning multiple scenarios&#8211;in fact, are far more capable than individual humans are. Are they conscious? If they are not, could not in principle have unconscious organisms evolved to live on land with highly advanced planning functions?</p>
<p>Yogi-one gets at this issue in noting that AI researchers assume awareness emerges with growing complexity. But this is a very controversial idea, and many philosophers would argue against it. Searle&#8217;s Chinese room argument is perhaps the most well known and discussed argument against it.</p>
<p>If one understands consciousness as the experience of what it is like to be something (Nagel)&#8211;the so-called hard problem of consciousness&#8211;then there is a complete disconnect between ability to plan or any other measure of what in effect is intelligence, and consciousness. Not only could be very complex and intelligent behavior be carried out by a machine that we humans would all describe as unconscious, but conversely, relatively simple organisms could be conscious.</p>
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		<title>By: yogi-one</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/03/14/why-did-consciousness-evolve-and-how-can-we-modify-it/#comment-4555</link>
		<dc:creator>yogi-one</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 May 2011 16:54:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4077#comment-4555</guid>
		<description>Whoops, now I&#039;m seeing something about my earlier comment: a plant can be passively aware of stimulus, bit it cannot &quot;plan&quot; in the sense that you are talking about.

For example a Venus flytrap: it has a simple open-shut mechanism that simply closes whenever there&#039;s pressure on the trap. It cannot even distinguish whether the stimulus is prey or not.

So perhaps there is an even more primary level of awareness that can simply receive information and even react, but not plan for the future.

So then, you would have three levels of awareness: simple awareness, consciousness, and self-awareness.

It would be interesting to explore the boundary between simple chemical reactivity and primary awareness. An interesting question would be whether a single cell has awareness, or it is simply a chemical machine. I think the prevailing viewpoint is that processes at the chemical level are pretty much done with no awareness, they are simply driven by the laws of chemical attraction and repulsion.

But does a one-celled plant or animal have awareness?

And how would you define awareness so it can be distinguished from simple chemical reactivity?

The view for AI researchers seems to be that as a system grows in complexity, it develops awareness. In other words, with enough processing power, and enough memory, you could build a fully conscious, self-aware machine.

This would imply that the idea, beloved by all religions, that something fundamentally outside the known laws of physics is necessary to give rise to conscious living beings,  is a fallacy.

In other words, humans have self-awareness and robots don&#039;t simply because humans are orders of magnitude more complex than the robots we have managed to build so far.

Also, the way we process huge amounts of information so fast is due to a technology that has so far evaded robotics. The way human nerve cells actually transfer, store, and apply information has no analog in the computer world.

Perhaps the advent of quantum computing will lead to progress on that front. In other words, humans are quantum computers on a mega-scale, according to this line of theory. Then the line of development from reactivity to simple awareness, to consciousness, and to self-awareness becomes simply a trajectory of rising complexity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoops, now I&#8217;m seeing something about my earlier comment: a plant can be passively aware of stimulus, bit it cannot &#8220;plan&#8221; in the sense that you are talking about.</p>
<p>For example a Venus flytrap: it has a simple open-shut mechanism that simply closes whenever there&#8217;s pressure on the trap. It cannot even distinguish whether the stimulus is prey or not.</p>
<p>So perhaps there is an even more primary level of awareness that can simply receive information and even react, but not plan for the future.</p>
<p>So then, you would have three levels of awareness: simple awareness, consciousness, and self-awareness.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to explore the boundary between simple chemical reactivity and primary awareness. An interesting question would be whether a single cell has awareness, or it is simply a chemical machine. I think the prevailing viewpoint is that processes at the chemical level are pretty much done with no awareness, they are simply driven by the laws of chemical attraction and repulsion.</p>
<p>But does a one-celled plant or animal have awareness?</p>
<p>And how would you define awareness so it can be distinguished from simple chemical reactivity?</p>
<p>The view for AI researchers seems to be that as a system grows in complexity, it develops awareness. In other words, with enough processing power, and enough memory, you could build a fully conscious, self-aware machine.</p>
<p>This would imply that the idea, beloved by all religions, that something fundamentally outside the known laws of physics is necessary to give rise to conscious living beings,  is a fallacy.</p>
<p>In other words, humans have self-awareness and robots don&#8217;t simply because humans are orders of magnitude more complex than the robots we have managed to build so far.</p>
<p>Also, the way we process huge amounts of information so fast is due to a technology that has so far evaded robotics. The way human nerve cells actually transfer, store, and apply information has no analog in the computer world.</p>
<p>Perhaps the advent of quantum computing will lead to progress on that front. In other words, humans are quantum computers on a mega-scale, according to this line of theory. Then the line of development from reactivity to simple awareness, to consciousness, and to self-awareness becomes simply a trajectory of rising complexity.</p>
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		<title>By: yogi-one</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/03/14/why-did-consciousness-evolve-and-how-can-we-modify-it/#comment-4554</link>
		<dc:creator>yogi-one</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 May 2011 16:00:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4077#comment-4554</guid>
		<description>I think for your purposes your definition of consciousness works just fine. This is a discussion about evolution, not a philosophical/spiritual treatise.

Also, I think that folks need to distinguish between &#039;consciousness&#039; and &#039;self-awareness&#039;. Using your definition of consciousness, an animal can be conscious without being self-aware. In fact a plant can be conscious, because it can sense and react to surrounding stimuli.

Awareness of self as a separate entity is a different trait, and probably requires some specialized development in the brain. In humans, this trait of self-awareness seems to develop quite late, like 1-year or more after birth.

In fact, human babies give a good example of &#039;consciousness&#039; being distinct from &#039;self-awareness&#039;. Self-awareness, according to this observation, would then be a specialized type of consciousness, but not a prerequisite for consciousness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think for your purposes your definition of consciousness works just fine. This is a discussion about evolution, not a philosophical/spiritual treatise.</p>
<p>Also, I think that folks need to distinguish between &#8216;consciousness&#8217; and &#8216;self-awareness&#8217;. Using your definition of consciousness, an animal can be conscious without being self-aware. In fact a plant can be conscious, because it can sense and react to surrounding stimuli.</p>
<p>Awareness of self as a separate entity is a different trait, and probably requires some specialized development in the brain. In humans, this trait of self-awareness seems to develop quite late, like 1-year or more after birth.</p>
<p>In fact, human babies give a good example of &#8216;consciousness&#8217; being distinct from &#8216;self-awareness&#8217;. Self-awareness, according to this observation, would then be a specialized type of consciousness, but not a prerequisite for consciousness.</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm MacIver</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/03/14/why-did-consciousness-evolve-and-how-can-we-modify-it/#comment-4553</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm MacIver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 May 2011 04:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4077#comment-4553</guid>
		<description>Responses to some of the points in the comment thread in Part II, http://j.mp/k9BxYr.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Responses to some of the points in the comment thread in Part II, <a href="http://j.mp/k9BxYr" rel="nofollow">http://j.mp/k9BxYr</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Friend</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/03/14/why-did-consciousness-evolve-and-how-can-we-modify-it/#comment-4552</link>
		<dc:creator>Friend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Apr 2011 18:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4077#comment-4552</guid>
		<description>All space/time is only a theory; the way each individual chooses to see their &#039;world out there&#039; is the way it &#039;shows up&#039; for them.  The optimist/ pessimist standing side by side watching the same event happen reveal this in their opposite interpretations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All space/time is only a theory; the way each individual chooses to see their &#8216;world out there&#8217; is the way it &#8216;shows up&#8217; for them.  The optimist/ pessimist standing side by side watching the same event happen reveal this in their opposite interpretations.</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm MacIver</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/03/14/why-did-consciousness-evolve-and-how-can-we-modify-it/#comment-4551</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm MacIver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Mar 2011 00:31:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4077#comment-4551</guid>
		<description>@ Daniel I - thanks for summing up in such a concise way. You&#039;ve gotten straight to the core - it&#039;s an argument about how this change in our abilities to perceive may have enabled planning and consciousness to evolve. But, as you point out, there&#039;s a long causal chain here with many important players I&#039;m not mentioning. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Daniel I &#8211; thanks for summing up in such a concise way. You&#8217;ve gotten straight to the core &#8211; it&#8217;s an argument about how this change in our abilities to perceive may have enabled planning and consciousness to evolve. But, as you point out, there&#8217;s a long causal chain here with many important players I&#8217;m not mentioning. </p>
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