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	<title>Comments on: When Will We Be Transhuman? Seven Conditions for Attaining Transhumanism</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/07/16/when-will-we-be-transhuman-seven-conditions-for-attaining-transhumanism/</link>
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		<title>By: Jackson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/07/16/when-will-we-be-transhuman-seven-conditions-for-attaining-transhumanism/#comment-5678</link>
		<dc:creator>Jackson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Sep 2011 19:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4531#comment-5678</guid>
		<description>I find a lot of hope in transhumanist thinking, one aspect of this philosophy that the people who denounce it forget is that it will greatly improve the quality of life for those born with a variety of birth defects.

I live with Cerebral Palsy, and I consider myself lucky because by and large I can live a fairly normal life, but this took years of therapy from around the time I was three to get where I am now. I would love to be enhanced physically just to the position of a normal person.

How many of the people who attack this idea have been made to feel like an invalid because of an disability? Or how many people have looked into the eyes of an extremely intelligent child trapped in a fairly useless body? I think human enhancements will be just the next leap forward in medicine, that gives humans a better quality of life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find a lot of hope in transhumanist thinking, one aspect of this philosophy that the people who denounce it forget is that it will greatly improve the quality of life for those born with a variety of birth defects.</p>
<p>I live with Cerebral Palsy, and I consider myself lucky because by and large I can live a fairly normal life, but this took years of therapy from around the time I was three to get where I am now. I would love to be enhanced physically just to the position of a normal person.</p>
<p>How many of the people who attack this idea have been made to feel like an invalid because of an disability? Or how many people have looked into the eyes of an extremely intelligent child trapped in a fairly useless body? I think human enhancements will be just the next leap forward in medicine, that gives humans a better quality of life.</p>
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		<title>By: K Grey</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/07/16/when-will-we-be-transhuman-seven-conditions-for-attaining-transhumanism/#comment-5677</link>
		<dc:creator>K Grey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2011 15:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4531#comment-5677</guid>
		<description>20.   zeeno Says: &quot;so the future, like the present, is a playground for the elite.&quot;

As others have noted, this is always the case, then to varying degree it spreads to the manager/worker masses (as economies of scale allow), and upon whom the system has historically depended. Some measure of inclusiveness, not by design, but by default and necessity. &quot;Progress.&quot;

The difference going forward is the tech increasingly replaces/reduces the need for so many workers. The future no longer built upon their sweat and muscle.

The question I pose to all those clamoring for these technotopias is simple: What will Transhumanism do with all those  unemployed/marginalized, resource devouring, pollution generating, disease ridden, and now deemed &quot;less evolved&quot; beings... Will is stop or slow it&#039;s unbridled leaps &quot;forward&quot; to insure integration/adoption for all? Can it make unlimited allowances for those who resist?

Exclusiveness, not by design, but by default and &quot;necessity&quot;. A cold future of exponential acceleration, blurring the consequences, leaving all that to the past...

The future unpredictable, always has been, but we know very well who we are and what we are capable of doing to each other under the guise of some &quot;ism&quot;.

&quot;Transhumanism&quot; is simply a matter of  &quot;better&quot; weapons. Same game, different name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>20.   zeeno Says: &#8220;so the future, like the present, is a playground for the elite.&#8221;</p>
<p>As others have noted, this is always the case, then to varying degree it spreads to the manager/worker masses (as economies of scale allow), and upon whom the system has historically depended. Some measure of inclusiveness, not by design, but by default and necessity. &#8220;Progress.&#8221;</p>
<p>The difference going forward is the tech increasingly replaces/reduces the need for so many workers. The future no longer built upon their sweat and muscle.</p>
<p>The question I pose to all those clamoring for these technotopias is simple: What will Transhumanism do with all those  unemployed/marginalized, resource devouring, pollution generating, disease ridden, and now deemed &#8220;less evolved&#8221; beings&#8230; Will is stop or slow it&#8217;s unbridled leaps &#8220;forward&#8221; to insure integration/adoption for all? Can it make unlimited allowances for those who resist?</p>
<p>Exclusiveness, not by design, but by default and &#8220;necessity&#8221;. A cold future of exponential acceleration, blurring the consequences, leaving all that to the past&#8230;</p>
<p>The future unpredictable, always has been, but we know very well who we are and what we are capable of doing to each other under the guise of some &#8220;ism&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;Transhumanism&#8221; is simply a matter of  &#8220;better&#8221; weapons. Same game, different name.</p>
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		<title>By: HashKat</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/07/16/when-will-we-be-transhuman-seven-conditions-for-attaining-transhumanism/#comment-5676</link>
		<dc:creator>HashKat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Aug 2011 09:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4531#comment-5676</guid>
		<description>&quot;Transhumanism cannot happen without a legal structure that allows individuals to control their own bodies.&quot;

I do not agree, whether something is legal or not does not determine whether people will do it. There are illegal drugs, yet people still take make and take them. It would be nice if post humans grew out of a society that respected their sovereignty but I don&#039;t believe that is necessary for it to occur.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Transhumanism cannot happen without a legal structure that allows individuals to control their own bodies.&#8221;</p>
<p>I do not agree, whether something is legal or not does not determine whether people will do it. There are illegal drugs, yet people still take make and take them. It would be nice if post humans grew out of a society that respected their sovereignty but I don&#8217;t believe that is necessary for it to occur.</p>
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		<title>By: PJ Manney</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/07/16/when-will-we-be-transhuman-seven-conditions-for-attaining-transhumanism/#comment-5675</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ Manney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Aug 2011 16:49:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4531#comment-5675</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve always believed the premise of articles like this (and the attitudes behind it) are flawed. Tranhumanism isn&#039;t some specific goal to be achieved. It&#039;s a process. We became transhuman when we created clothing, eyeglasses, prosthetics of any kind. The point is not wheather we cross a specific threshold to finally become transhuman. The point is that we are continually transhuman and the line we cross is erased in the sand, while a new line is thrust before us. In fact, technological adaptation and improvement is the definition of humanness post Homo habilis. We exist on a continuum.

Making transhumanism something that only occurs in a Sci Fi future diminishes the importance of transhuman bioethics in the present.  And we&#039;re neck-deep in them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always believed the premise of articles like this (and the attitudes behind it) are flawed. Tranhumanism isn&#8217;t some specific goal to be achieved. It&#8217;s a process. We became transhuman when we created clothing, eyeglasses, prosthetics of any kind. The point is not wheather we cross a specific threshold to finally become transhuman. The point is that we are continually transhuman and the line we cross is erased in the sand, while a new line is thrust before us. In fact, technological adaptation and improvement is the definition of humanness post Homo habilis. We exist on a continuum.</p>
<p>Making transhumanism something that only occurs in a Sci Fi future diminishes the importance of transhuman bioethics in the present.  And we&#8217;re neck-deep in them.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Plus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/07/16/when-will-we-be-transhuman-seven-conditions-for-attaining-transhumanism/#comment-5674</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Plus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Aug 2011 06:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4531#comment-5674</guid>
		<description>I happen to like &quot;Brave New World,&quot; and I think its social model has an undeservedly bad reputation. Huxley anticipated modern American women in his character Lenina Crowne. I could easily imagine her with a cell phone on her Malthusian belt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I happen to like &#8220;Brave New World,&#8221; and I think its social model has an undeservedly bad reputation. Huxley anticipated modern American women in his character Lenina Crowne. I could easily imagine her with a cell phone on her Malthusian belt.</p>
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		<title>By: Sally Morem</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/07/16/when-will-we-be-transhuman-seven-conditions-for-attaining-transhumanism/#comment-5673</link>
		<dc:creator>Sally Morem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 22:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4531#comment-5673</guid>
		<description>We will hit the technological singularity when our science and tech development has sped up so much that they&#039;re doubling in hours...minutes...seconds...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We will hit the technological singularity when our science and tech development has sped up so much that they&#8217;re doubling in hours&#8230;minutes&#8230;seconds&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: David M</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/07/16/when-will-we-be-transhuman-seven-conditions-for-attaining-transhumanism/#comment-5672</link>
		<dc:creator>David M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:58:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4531#comment-5672</guid>
		<description>Whatever ones stances on the ethical questions, I think it is inevitable that the relevant technology will one day exist (providing we don&#039;t say, wipe out society in a nuclear holocaust or something.).
How society responds will depend on how near or far into the future it is before technology has progressed to that point.
If it&#039;s in our lifetimes, the arguments in this comment thread will be the sort of arguments that will arise. If it&#039;s in the distant future, our descendants may look back on this comment section and have a chuckle at the quaint old ideas and arguments their ancestors held and engaged in, because the nature of their society may be completely different from ours.
While we might think predicting the technological developments of the future is getting easier, I think we can all admit we still can&#039;t predict the directions society may move in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whatever ones stances on the ethical questions, I think it is inevitable that the relevant technology will one day exist (providing we don&#8217;t say, wipe out society in a nuclear holocaust or something.).<br />
How society responds will depend on how near or far into the future it is before technology has progressed to that point.<br />
If it&#8217;s in our lifetimes, the arguments in this comment thread will be the sort of arguments that will arise. If it&#8217;s in the distant future, our descendants may look back on this comment section and have a chuckle at the quaint old ideas and arguments their ancestors held and engaged in, because the nature of their society may be completely different from ours.<br />
While we might think predicting the technological developments of the future is getting easier, I think we can all admit we still can&#8217;t predict the directions society may move in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter B.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/07/16/when-will-we-be-transhuman-seven-conditions-for-attaining-transhumanism/#comment-5671</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Aug 2011 22:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4531#comment-5671</guid>
		<description>Tom opines:

&gt;“Absolute conjecture and completely hypothetical. My initial argument is against the idea that we can factually claim that something will be possible prior to it actually being possible.”

Twice wrong. First, the techniques I mentioned are *already* in use around the world for genetic engineering of mammalian cells. This includes targeted addition and removal of specific chromosomes. Here’s an example:

http://www.intechopen.com/source/pdfs/15476/InTech-Chromosome_engineering_in_mouse_embryonic_stem_cells_addition_and_elimination_of_targeted_chromosomes.pdf

“[..] we have developed chromosome elimination cassettes (CEC) using a Cre-inverted loxP system that was first used in mouse ES cells. In this system, transient cre expression can initiate immediate chromosomal loss over the course of a few cell cycles in the recombinant cells.”
…showing it’s possible to move tagged chromosomes into or back out of the genome between generations.

Second, we can pretty damn well say what’s possible prior to it being practical if the relevant natural laws and conditions are known. Humans can’t put an astronaut on Mars right now. But in view of scientific extrapolations from the Apollo Moon landings, it’s most likely just a question of money to solve the remaining health and engineering issues. Likewise, since chromosome engineering already works in stem cells and mammalian embryos, expectations that it will also work out for human zygotes are no leap of faith.

Whether chromosome engineering could be applied to the adult organism directly, depends on whether the delivery methods for signalling molecules and/or gene vectors can be improved enough. I have yet to see a cogent argument suggesting it’s impossible. In any case, no one in here has made a contention that it will “absolutely” be feasible, and in “every” cell, without “any” problems. That’s a strawman you are bashing. Neither is it all that clear why it should be necessary to reprogram 100.0 % of body cells in order to achieve a desired effect with little side effects, rather than just, say, 99.999 %.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom opines:</p>
<p>&gt;“Absolute conjecture and completely hypothetical. My initial argument is against the idea that we can factually claim that something will be possible prior to it actually being possible.”</p>
<p>Twice wrong. First, the techniques I mentioned are *already* in use around the world for genetic engineering of mammalian cells. This includes targeted addition and removal of specific chromosomes. Here’s an example:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.intechopen.com/source/pdfs/15476/InTech-Chromosome_engineering_in_mouse_embryonic_stem_cells_addition_and_elimination_of_targeted_chromosomes.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.intechopen.com/source/pdfs/15476/InTech-Chromosome_engineering_in_mouse_embryonic_stem_cells_addition_and_elimination_of_targeted_chromosomes.pdf</a></p>
<p>“[..] we have developed chromosome elimination cassettes (CEC) using a Cre-inverted loxP system that was first used in mouse ES cells. In this system, transient cre expression can initiate immediate chromosomal loss over the course of a few cell cycles in the recombinant cells.”<br />
…showing it’s possible to move tagged chromosomes into or back out of the genome between generations.</p>
<p>Second, we can pretty damn well say what’s possible prior to it being practical if the relevant natural laws and conditions are known. Humans can’t put an astronaut on Mars right now. But in view of scientific extrapolations from the Apollo Moon landings, it’s most likely just a question of money to solve the remaining health and engineering issues. Likewise, since chromosome engineering already works in stem cells and mammalian embryos, expectations that it will also work out for human zygotes are no leap of faith.</p>
<p>Whether chromosome engineering could be applied to the adult organism directly, depends on whether the delivery methods for signalling molecules and/or gene vectors can be improved enough. I have yet to see a cogent argument suggesting it’s impossible. In any case, no one in here has made a contention that it will “absolutely” be feasible, and in “every” cell, without “any” problems. That’s a strawman you are bashing. Neither is it all that clear why it should be necessary to reprogram 100.0 % of body cells in order to achieve a desired effect with little side effects, rather than just, say, 99.999 %.</p>
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		<title>By: Tihamer Toth-Fejel</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/07/16/when-will-we-be-transhuman-seven-conditions-for-attaining-transhumanism/#comment-5670</link>
		<dc:creator>Tihamer Toth-Fejel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Aug 2011 03:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4531#comment-5670</guid>
		<description>Jody asked if there are any hardcore transhumanists that are Christians.  Hmm... it depends what you mean by &quot;hardcore&quot;, but the short answer is, &quot;very few&quot;. I addressed your question in my presentation at Transvision  2004, &quot;Is Catholic Transhumanism Possible?&quot;  (http://www.transhumanism.org/tv/2004/program.shtml.  In short, humanism originally came out of Christianity, so Christian Transhumanism is possible, but only if you jettison a number of Transhumanist philosophical assumptions that inexorably lead to things like atheism and eugenics.   One root of Transhumanism&#039;s problem is its inability to recognize evil. (See &quot;Transhumanism: The New Master Race?&quot; http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/99jan.htm#_Toc456110960)

One thing I really like about Transhumanists is that they have guts.  Like Christians, they make no bones about belonging to an exceptional species.  None of this milquetoast pussyfooting around about &quot;becoming one with the Earth&quot;.  Transhumanists recognize, even more clearly than most Christians today, that because Mother Nature accepts evolution as her handmaiden, she is a brutal and psychotic bitch who tortures and slaughters her children.   And they want to do something about it.  Christians should recognize that the goal of ameliorating the effects of the fall is nothing different from anything they&#039;ve been doing since Jesus Christ walked this Earth.

Christians are sinners too, of course (See &quot;Bad Popes&quot; for some famous examples http://stmarystudentparish.org/PDFs/students/grad/TheBadPopes.ppt). With respect to Transhumanism, on one hand Christians are philosophically much better equipped to identify Transhumanism&#039;s problems (e.g. the entire theme of CBC&#039;s &quot;Imago Dei&quot; conference a few years ago; see also their critique at http://www.cbc-network.org/2011/08/the-trouble-with-transhumanism-2/).  But Christians commit a sin of the intellect when they blithely disregard the technological assumptions of Transhumanism.  Productive Nanosystems will make many of Kyle Munkittrick&#039;s predictions come true.   And that should make everyone sit up and take notice --and carefully examine what they really want (See &quot;Be Careful What You Wish For&quot;  http://www.nanotech-now.com/columns/?article=358).

What is interesting is that if you find out what you really, really want, then you discover that saints and theologians have known it all along.  In addition, some of the smarter ones have thought about some of the earth-shaking issues that mature nanotechnology will raise (see &quot;Edith Stein: Atheist, Philosopher, and Saint&quot; at http://stmarystudentparish.org/PDFs/students/grad/EdithSteinPhilosophyFinal.ppt).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jody asked if there are any hardcore transhumanists that are Christians.  Hmm&#8230; it depends what you mean by &#8220;hardcore&#8221;, but the short answer is, &#8220;very few&#8221;. I addressed your question in my presentation at Transvision  2004, &#8220;Is Catholic Transhumanism Possible?&#8221;  (<a href="http://www.transhumanism.org/tv/2004/program.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.transhumanism.org/tv/2004/program.shtml</a>.  In short, humanism originally came out of Christianity, so Christian Transhumanism is possible, but only if you jettison a number of Transhumanist philosophical assumptions that inexorably lead to things like atheism and eugenics.   One root of Transhumanism&#8217;s problem is its inability to recognize evil. (See &#8220;Transhumanism: The New Master Race?&#8221; <a href="http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/99jan.htm#_Toc456110960" rel="nofollow">http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/99jan.htm#_Toc456110960</a>)</p>
<p>One thing I really like about Transhumanists is that they have guts.  Like Christians, they make no bones about belonging to an exceptional species.  None of this milquetoast pussyfooting around about &#8220;becoming one with the Earth&#8221;.  Transhumanists recognize, even more clearly than most Christians today, that because Mother Nature accepts evolution as her handmaiden, she is a brutal and psychotic bitch who tortures and slaughters her children.   And they want to do something about it.  Christians should recognize that the goal of ameliorating the effects of the fall is nothing different from anything they&#8217;ve been doing since Jesus Christ walked this Earth.</p>
<p>Christians are sinners too, of course (See &#8220;Bad Popes&#8221; for some famous examples <a href="http://stmarystudentparish.org/PDFs/students/grad/TheBadPopes.ppt" rel="nofollow">http://stmarystudentparish.org/PDFs/students/grad/TheBadPopes.ppt</a>). With respect to Transhumanism, on one hand Christians are philosophically much better equipped to identify Transhumanism&#8217;s problems (e.g. the entire theme of CBC&#8217;s &#8220;Imago Dei&#8221; conference a few years ago; see also their critique at <a href="http://www.cbc-network.org/2011/08/the-trouble-with-transhumanism-2/" rel="nofollow">http://www.cbc-network.org/2011/08/the-trouble-with-transhumanism-2/</a>).  But Christians commit a sin of the intellect when they blithely disregard the technological assumptions of Transhumanism.  Productive Nanosystems will make many of Kyle Munkittrick&#8217;s predictions come true.   And that should make everyone sit up and take notice &#8211;and carefully examine what they really want (See &#8220;Be Careful What You Wish For&#8221;  <a href="http://www.nanotech-now.com/columns/?article=358" rel="nofollow">http://www.nanotech-now.com/columns/?article=358</a>).</p>
<p>What is interesting is that if you find out what you really, really want, then you discover that saints and theologians have known it all along.  In addition, some of the smarter ones have thought about some of the earth-shaking issues that mature nanotechnology will raise (see &#8220;Edith Stein: Atheist, Philosopher, and Saint&#8221; at <a href="http://stmarystudentparish.org/PDFs/students/grad/EdithSteinPhilosophyFinal.ppt" rel="nofollow">http://stmarystudentparish.org/PDFs/students/grad/EdithSteinPhilosophyFinal.ppt</a>).</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/07/16/when-will-we-be-transhuman-seven-conditions-for-attaining-transhumanism/#comment-5669</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Aug 2011 00:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/?p=4531#comment-5669</guid>
		<description>Rights for animals and robots?  Screw that.

Let them be our eternal slaves!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rights for animals and robots?  Screw that.</p>
<p>Let them be our eternal slaves!</p>
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